[转帖]废除一切的耶稣的画像

劝勉的声音

赞成LZ的观点，我们应该回归正统，反对一切形式的偶像崇拜。

但落实起来着实有点困难，中国人几千年的信仰习惯恐怕一时难改，无怪乎有人说现在的农村家庭教会无非是朴实的农民们把崇拜对象由观音换成了基督。崇拜的习惯没有改变。

我家中就是一例，有一基督怀抱小羊的画像，母亲十分爱护它，我说那不过是一个画像，母亲说那也不是别的画像，是基督的画像，我说十诫中已经有禁止偶像崇拜的命令，可她就是不听。因为文化层次的缘故，我觉得我们确实不能强迫他们改变信仰习惯。至于自己，我当然知道现在的画像都是“美化”了的基督。

不论寻找什么样的托词，偶像崇拜就是偶像崇拜，狡辩显得非常多余。

i蛋蛋

以下是引用anglocatholic在2010-7-12 7:21:00的发言：

请教楼主几个问题：

1。你的的父母去世，因为你怕随便找一张别人的照片来代替父母的遗像，所以你家里干脆什么都不挂，四壁空空，犹如父母健在，这就是你所谓的“孝”。

 

2。在崇拜天主的时候使用天主像，人们崇拜的是在像中临在的天主，而不是像本身——这也就是为什么一定要用天主画像或者雕塑而不是其他画像或者雕塑。一些改革宗教会总是呼喊着“天主像是有罪的”，却在毁掉天主像后在教堂内外树立起改革家的雕像和画像，如john knox的雕像, 是何意？分明是用改革家们取代天主，把改革家们立作“天主”加以崇拜。

 

 

3。 “一、为什么说所谓耶稣的像是亵渎基督：1、上帝没有吩咐”

质疑：上帝没有吩咐的事情就不做么？上帝什么时候吩咐过允许人用电脑、用电器、用汽车飞机了？这些19世纪以后的受造物什么时候上帝在圣经里说可以用了？既然没有说可以用，你却又在使用，你岂不是日日亵渎基督？

 

4。“问96：神在第二条诫命里命令什么？

答：就是我们绝对不可为神造任何像，也不可用圣经中所命令以外的方式敬拜。”

 

质疑：这根本就不是神的第二条诫命。十诫内容如下：

 

The Lutheran (Protestant) and Catholic division of the commandments both follow the one established by St. Augustine, following the then current synagogue scribal division. The first three commandments govern the relationship between God and humans, the fourth through eighth govern public relationships between people, and the last two govern private thoughts. For additional information on the Catholic understanding of the Ten Commandments, see the Catechism of the Catholic Church (1994), sections 2052–2557.^[45] References to the Catechism are provided below for each commandment as well as the interpretation used by Lutherans and Catholics. The following text is from Deuteronomy 5:6–5:21^[46] New Revised Standard Version

1. "I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery; you shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the LORD your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and fourth generation of those who reject me, but showing steadfast love to the thousandth generation of those who love me and keep my commandments."

Catholic teaching distinguishes between dulia—paying honor, respect and veneration to saints and also indirectly to God through contemplation of objects such as paintings and statues—and latria— adoration directed to God alone. (See Catechism 2084–2141).^[47]

2. "You shall not make wrongful use of the name of the LORD your God, for the LORD will not acquit anyone who misuses his name."

This commandment prohibits not just swearing but also the misappropriation of religious language in order to commit a crime, participating in occult practices, and blaspheming against places or people that are holy to God. (See Catechism 2142–2167).^[48]

3. "Observe the sabbath day and keep it holy, as the LORD your God commanded you. Six days you shall labor and do all your work. But the seventh day is a sabbath to the LORD your God; you shall not do any work—you, or your son or your daughter, or your male or female slave, or your ox or your donkey, or any of your livestock, or the resident alien in your towns, so that your male and female slave may rest as well as you. Remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and the LORD your God brought you out from there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm; therefore the LORD your God commanded you to keep the sabbath day."

The Catechism states that the "first day" of the week, or Sunday, has replaced the Jewish Sabbath—the completion of creation—as the Lord's day because it "recalls the new creation inaugurated by the Resurrection of Christ." The Catholic Church teaches that Catholics are obliged to attend Mass on Sunday and to avoid any unnecessary work that distracts from keeping the Lord's day. (see Catechism 2168-2195).^[49]

4. "Honor your father and your mother, as the LORD your God commanded you, so that your days may be long and that it may go well with you in the land that the LORD your God is giving you."

This commandment emphasizes the family as part of God's design, as well as an extended metaphor that God uses for his relationship with his creation. (See Catechism 2197–2257.)^[50]

5. "(Roman Catholic - New American Bible) You shall not kill / (Lutheran - New International Version) You shall not murder"

"Assuming that the guilty party's identity and responsibility have been fully determined, the traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude recourse to the death penalty, if this is the only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor. If, however, nonlethal means are sufficient to defend and protect people's safety from the aggressor, authority will limit itself to such means, as these are more in keeping with the concrete conditions of the common good and are more in conformity to the dignity of the human person. Today, in fact, as a consequence of the possibilities which the state has for effectively preventing crime, by rendering one who has committed an offense incapable of doing harm - without definitely taking away from him the possibility of redeeming himself - the cases in which the execution of the offender is an absolute necessity are very rare, if not practically nonexistent." (See Catechism 2267).^[51] Catholics (along with many Lutherans) also consider abortion sinful and a violation of this commandment. War, if rigorous conditions of moral legitimacy are met (that is, the "use of arms must not produce evils and disorders graver than the evil to be eliminated"), is not a violation because "governments cannot be denied the right of lawful self-defense, once all peace efforts have failed." (See Catechism 2258–2330).^[52]

6. "Neither shall you commit adultery."

Adultery is the breaking of the holy bond between husband and wife, and is thus a sacrilege. This commandment includes not just the act of adultery, but lust as well. (See Catechism 2331–2400).^[53]

7. "Neither shall you steal."

(See Catechism 2401–2463).^[54]

8. "Neither shall you bear false witness against your neighbor."

This commandment forbids misrepresenting the truth in relations with others. This also forbids lying. (See Catechism 2464–2513).^[55]

9. "Neither shall you covet your neighbor's wife."

(See Catechism 2514–2533).^[56]

10. "Neither shall you desire your neighbor's house, or field, or male or female slave, or ox, or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor."

(See Catechism 2534–2557).^[57]

 

[此贴子已经被作者于2010-7-12 8:00:51编辑过]

朋友（你应该是天主教的吧，那我不该称你是弟兄），我真的很不想反驳你，很简单，你根本就没有仔细看完这篇文章！

 

[此贴子已经被作者于2010-7-12 12:04:06编辑过]

i蛋蛋

以下是引用anglocatholic在2010-7-12 7:49:00的发言：
 

5．“问97：那么我们不可造任何像吗？
  答：神是不可以也不可能被描摹的；至于受造物，虽可以被描摹，但神禁止我们把他们作成像，存起来加以跪拜，或用它来崇拜神。”

质疑：天主圣三：Father the creator, and the Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit. Father 作为 creator确实是无法单独描绘的，但是the Son Jesus Christ由肉身道成，具有神人两性。在人性方面与我们相同，都是肉身，同样经历出生、成长、由少到老，为何不能被描摹？对the Son Jesus Christ的描绘，因三位一体，而成为对上帝整体the holy trinity的描绘。因此凡认为神是不可以也不可能被描摹着，都是反对天主圣三、神人两性的异端。反对天主圣三、神人两性的异端，在早期教会时期就已经被驳斥禁止。

更不要忘记，在创世纪中主说：“我们要照着我们的形象，按着我们的样式造人”（创1，26）。 如果天主无形象，如何“照着我们的形象，按着我们的样式造人”？

请你把你的那些疑问写下来，再回过头来看看这篇文章。

人怕出名猪怕壮

以下是引用anglocatholic在2010-7-12 7:21:00的发言：

请教楼主几个问题：

1。你的的父母去世，因为你怕随便找一张别人的照片来代替父母的遗像，所以你家里干脆什么都不挂，四壁空空，犹如父母健在，这就是你所谓的“孝”。

 

2。在崇拜天主的时候使用天主像，人们崇拜的是在像中临在的天主，而不是像本身——这也就是为什么一定要用天主画像或者雕塑而不是其他画像或者雕塑。一些改革宗教会总是呼喊着“天主像是有罪的”，却在毁掉天主像后在教堂内外树立起改革家的雕像和画像，如john knox的雕像, 是何意？分明是用改革家们取代天主，把改革家们立作“天主”加以崇拜。

 

 

3。 “一、为什么说所谓耶稣的像是亵渎基督：1、上帝没有吩咐”

质疑：上帝没有吩咐的事情就不做么？上帝什么时候吩咐过允许人用电脑、用电器、用汽车飞机了？这些19世纪以后的受造物什么时候上帝在圣经里说可以用了？既然没有说可以用，你却又在使用，你岂不是日日亵渎基督？

 

4。“问96：神在第二条诫命里命令什么？

答：就是我们绝对不可为神造任何像，也不可用圣经中所命令以外的方式敬拜。”

 

质疑：这根本就不是神的第二条诫命。十诫内容如下：

 

The Lutheran (Protestant) and Catholic division of the commandments both follow the one established by St. Augustine, following the then current synagogue scribal division. The first three commandments govern the relationship between God and humans, the fourth through eighth govern public relationships between people, and the last two govern private thoughts. For additional information on the Catholic understanding of the Ten Commandments, see the Catechism of the Catholic Church (1994), sections 2052–2557.^[45] References to the Catechism are provided below for each commandment as well as the interpretation used by Lutherans and Catholics. The following text is from Deuteronomy 5:6–5:21^[46] New Revised Standard Version

1. "I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery; you shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the LORD your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and fourth generation of those who reject me, but showing steadfast love to the thousandth generation of those who love me and keep my commandments."

Catholic teaching distinguishes between dulia—paying honor, respect and veneration to saints and also indirectly to God through contemplation of objects such as paintings and statues—and latria— adoration directed to God alone. (See Catechism 2084–2141).^[47]

2. "You shall not make wrongful use of the name of the LORD your God, for the LORD will not acquit anyone who misuses his name."

This commandment prohibits not just swearing but also the misappropriation of religious language in order to commit a crime, participating in occult practices, and blaspheming against places or people that are holy to God. (See Catechism 2142–2167).^[48]

3. "Observe the sabbath day and keep it holy, as the LORD your God commanded you. Six days you shall labor and do all your work. But the seventh day is a sabbath to the LORD your God; you shall not do any work—you, or your son or your daughter, or your male or female slave, or your ox or your donkey, or any of your livestock, or the resident alien in your towns, so that your male and female slave may rest as well as you. Remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and the LORD your God brought you out from there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm; therefore the LORD your God commanded you to keep the sabbath day."

The Catechism states that the "first day" of the week, or Sunday, has replaced the Jewish Sabbath—the completion of creation—as the Lord's day because it "recalls the new creation inaugurated by the Resurrection of Christ." The Catholic Church teaches that Catholics are obliged to attend Mass on Sunday and to avoid any unnecessary work that distracts from keeping the Lord's day. (see Catechism 2168-2195).^[49]

4. "Honor your father and your mother, as the LORD your God commanded you, so that your days may be long and that it may go well with you in the land that the LORD your God is giving you."

This commandment emphasizes the family as part of God's design, as well as an extended metaphor that God uses for his relationship with his creation. (See Catechism 2197–2257.)^[50]

5. "(Roman Catholic - New American Bible) You shall not kill / (Lutheran - New International Version) You shall not murder"

"Assuming that the guilty party's identity and responsibility have been fully determined, the traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude recourse to the death penalty, if this is the only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor. If, however, nonlethal means are sufficient to defend and protect people's safety from the aggressor, authority will limit itself to such means, as these are more in keeping with the concrete conditions of the common good and are more in conformity to the dignity of the human person. Today, in fact, as a consequence of the possibilities which the state has for effectively preventing crime, by rendering one who has committed an offense incapable of doing harm - without definitely taking away from him the possibility of redeeming himself - the cases in which the execution of the offender is an absolute necessity are very rare, if not practically nonexistent." (See Catechism 2267).^[51] Catholics (along with many Lutherans) also consider abortion sinful and a violation of this commandment. War, if rigorous conditions of moral legitimacy are met (that is, the "use of arms must not produce evils and disorders graver than the evil to be eliminated"), is not a violation because "governments cannot be denied the right of lawful self-defense, once all peace efforts have failed." (See Catechism 2258–2330).^[52]

6. "Neither shall you commit adultery."

Adultery is the breaking of the holy bond between husband and wife, and is thus a sacrilege. This commandment includes not just the act of adultery, but lust as well. (See Catechism 2331–2400).^[53]

7. "Neither shall you steal."

(See Catechism 2401–2463).^[54]

8. "Neither shall you bear false witness against your neighbor."

This commandment forbids misrepresenting the truth in relations with others. This also forbids lying. (See Catechism 2464–2513).^[55]

9. "Neither shall you covet your neighbor's wife."

(See Catechism 2514–2533).^[56]

10. "Neither shall you desire your neighbor's house, or field, or male or female slave, or ox, or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor."

(See Catechism 2534–2557).^[57]

 

[此贴子已经被作者于2010-7-12 8:00:51编辑过]

 

你好，其实楼主是说一种现象，大家各有领受，不过你的几个问题却有些不对

1。你的的父母去世，因为你怕随便找一张别人的照片来代替父母的遗像，所以你家里干脆什么都不挂，四壁空空，犹如父母健在，这就是你所谓的“孝”。

答：我们的“孝”是体现在挂画像上吗？如果一个人生前不孝，父母死后挂满屋子画像也不代表他就“孝”了？

 

2。在崇拜天主的时候使用天主像，人们崇拜的是在像中临在的天主，而不是像本身——这也就是为什么一定要用天主画像或者雕塑而不是其他画像或者雕塑。一些改革宗教会总是呼喊着“天主像是有罪的”，却在毁掉天主像后在教堂内外树立起改革家的雕像和画像，如john knox的雕像, 是何意？分明是用改革家们取代天主，把改革家们立作“天主”加以崇拜。

答：楼主并没有说挂画像，就是拜偶像，你要仔细看看楼主说的是什么一种情况，改革宗挂的画像和天主教中挂的圣像是不一样的

 

 

 

[此贴子已经被作者于2010-7-12 16:01:20编辑过]

人怕出名猪怕壮

以下是引用anglocatholic在2010-7-12 7:49:00的发言：
 

5．“问97：那么我们不可造任何像吗？
  答：神是不可以也不可能被描摹的；至于受造物，虽可以被描摹，但神禁止我们把他们作成像，存起来加以跪拜，或用它来崇拜神。”

质疑：天主圣三：Father the creator, and the Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit. Father 作为 creator确实是无法单独描绘的，但是the Son Jesus Christ由肉身道成，具有神人两性。在人性方面与我们相同，都是肉身，同样经历出生、成长、由少到老，为何不能被描摹？对the Son Jesus Christ的描绘，因三位一体，而成为对上帝整体the holy trinity的描绘。因此凡认为神是不可以也不可能被描摹着，都是反对天主圣三、神人两性的异端。反对天主圣三、神人两性的异端，在早期教会时期就已经被驳斥禁止。

更不要忘记，在创世纪中主说：“我们要照着我们的形象，按着我们的样式造人”（创1，26）。 如果天主无形象，如何“照着我们的形象，按着我们的样式造人”？

 

你好，“形象样式”我们不认为是指外表，如果是指外表，上帝有男女像的区分吗？上帝就像人一样高矮胖瘦吗？

在新教中，上帝的“形象样式”被解释为上帝的属性：圣经，公义，慈爱，自由等等，因此人也会有这种属性的体现，人也会去爱人，也希望被爱；人也有公平观，有道德观等等这种相对的属性

爱雅

我个人觉得用图画的方式宣传教义，是可行的。（因为图画可以很直接把人带到意境中去）

爱雅

但是不可把画中的人当作神去膜拜！！！

 

拜偶像是堕落的人的罪性。堕落的人会把一切的事物当作神来拜的，因为人内心深处的敬拜性。

 

但是只有拜了真神以后，才能够使得人的敬拜性得到真正的皈依。

 

这种情感情愫才能得到真正的释放。

 

原则上来说：人对上帝以外的任何事物的爱超过了爱上帝和他的旨意，这应该都属于拜偶像了。

 

 

 

[此贴子已经被作者于2010-7-14 16:02:26编辑过]

笨鱼

放把火，烧了那些偶像！

i蛋蛋

我想，爱雅姊妹，当我们看着画像的时候，往往内心就会让我们认定，那个是耶稣。也就是这样的认定，使我们在和上帝沟通的时候会不断的在我们脑海里显现那幅画的人物。如果通过用图画的方式宣传教义，不但没有帮助，只会让教义限制在某个框架内。

为什么428

干脆把十字架和圣经都废除得了，让一切都归于虚无，这样才可以从根本上杜绝拜偶像的危险。