[转帖]耶稣是神本体又是神的儿子，这事怎么解释？

米格

以下是引用谦顺在2009-6-6 5:55:00的发言：

神是灵，主是灵，都对，因为神是三位一体的，只有一个灵就是圣灵。上述经文中的灵当然是指圣灵，圣灵是父的灵也是子的灵，但不能说父是个灵，或子是个灵，那就错了。

而圣子是神的道，是神本体的真相。

父是神的本体，是一切的源头。子由父生，灵由父发。

所以父是神的本体，子是神的道，灵是神的灵。

此是东正教的三一观。对于天主教和新教，圣灵由圣父圣子共发

Timothychen

以下是引用米格在2009-6-9 20:41:00的发言：

此是东正教的三一观。对于天主教和新教，圣灵由圣父圣子共发

老兄，新教的重要宗派之一改革宗教会可不同意你的“共发论”观点！

下文来自World Alliance of Reformed Churches（世界改革宗教会联合会）。

 

http://www.warc.ch/dt/erl1/13.html

 

Agreed statement on the Holy Trinity

 

Orthodox-Reformed dialogue, Kappel-am-Albis, Switzerland, March 1992

 

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 The self-revelation of God as Father, Son and Holy Spirit

 Three divine persons

 Eternal relations in God

 The order of divine persons in the trinity

 Trinity in unity and unity in trinity, the one monarchy

 The mutual indwelling of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit

 One being, three persons

 The apostolic and catholic faith

 

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We confess together the evangelical and ancient Faith of the Catholic Church in "the uncreated, consubstantial and coeternal Trinity", promulgated by the Councils of Nicaea (AD 325) and Constantinople (AD 381). "This is the Faith of our baptism that teaches us to believe in the Name of the Father, of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. According to this Faith there is one Godhead, Power and Being of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, equal in Honour, Majesty and eternal Sovereignty in three most perfect Subsistences (en trisi teleiotatais hypostasesin), that is, in three perfect Persons"(trisi teleiois prosopois) (Ep. Syn. Constantinopolitanae, AD 382).

 

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 The self-revelation of God as Father, Son and Holy Spirit

According to the Holy Gospel God has revealed himself in the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, as "through the Son we have access to the Father in one Spirit" (Eph 2.18). Of decisive importance in the Church's formulation of belief in the Holy Trinity was the dominical institution of Baptism "in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" (Mt 28.19). As Basil expressed it: "We are bound to be baptized in the terms we have received and to profess faith in the terms in which we have been baptized" (Ep.125.3). Other triadic formulations in the New Testament reinforced this belief, such as the benediction: "The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the communion of the Holy Spirit be with you all" (2 Cor 12.14). The ancient Catholic Church laid great stress on the words of our Lord: "All things have been delivered to me by my Father; and no one knows the Son except the Father; and no one knows the Father except the Son, and any one to whom the Son chooses to reveal him" (Mt 11.27; Lk 10.22). With this they conjoined the words of St Paul about "what God has revealed to us through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God" (1 Cor 2.10) (Thus John of Damascus, De fide orthodoxa 1.1). This is the foundation of the Apostolic doctrine of the Trinity in Unity and the Unity in Trinity: one Being, three Persons.

 

To believe in the Unity of God apart from the Trinity is to limit the truth of divine Revelation. It is through the divine Trinity that we believe in the divine Unity, and through the divine Unity that we believe in the divine Trinity. "There is one eternal Godhead in Trinity, and there is one glory of the Holy Trinity...If the doctrine of God (he theologia) is now perfect in Trinity, this is the true and only divine worship (theosebeia), and this is the beauty and the truth, it must have always been so" (Athanasius, Con. Ar. 1.18).

 

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 Three divine persons

In the New Testament witness to God's Revelation "the Father", "the Son", and "the Holy Spirit" are unique and proper names denoting three distinct Persons or real Hypostases which are neither exchangeable nor interchangeable while nevertheless of one and the same divine Being. There is one Person of the Father who is always the Father, distinct from the Son and the Spirit; and there is another Person of the Son who is always the Son, distinct from the Father and the Spirit; and another Person of the Holy Spirit who is always the Spirit distinct from the Father and the Son. In this Trinity "One is not more or less God, nor is One before and after Another", "for there is no greater or less in respect of the Being or the consubstantial Persons" (Gregory the Theologian, Or. 31.14; 40.43). All three Persons are coeternal and coequal. They are all perfectly one in the identity of their Nature and perfectly consubstantial in their Being. Each Person is himself Lord and God, and yet there are not three Lords or Gods, but only one Lord God, and there is only one and the same eternal Being of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are perfectly and completely consubstantial in their mutual indwelling of one another and in their containing (perichoresis) of one another. "The Trinity praised, worshipped and adored, is one and indivisible and without degrees (aschematistos), and he is united without confusion, just as the Monad also is distinguished in thought without division. For the threefold doxology, "Holy, Holy, Holy is the Lord" offered by those venerable living beings, denotes the three perfect Persons, just as in the word "Lord" they indicate his one Being" (Athanasius, In ill. om. 6). The Holy Trinity is thus perfectly homogeneous and unitary, both in the threeness and oneness of God's activity, and in the threeness and oneness of his own eternal unchangeable Being. What God the Father is toward us in Christ and in the Spirit he is inherently and eternally in himself, and what he is inherently and eternally in himself he is toward us in the Incarnation of his Son and in the Mission of the Spirit. "As it always was, so it is even now; and as it now is, so it always was and is the Trinity, and in him (en aute) Father, Son and Holy Spirit" (Athanasius, Ad Ser. 3.7). "In the Godhead alone the Father is properly Father, and since he is the only Father, he is and was, and always is. And the Son is properly the Son, and the only Son. And of them it holds good that the Father is always called Father, and the Son is and always called Son. And the Holy Spirit is always the Holy Spirit, whom we have believed to be of God, and to be given from the Father through the Son. Thus the Holy Trinity remains invariable, known in one Godhead" (Athanasius, Ad Ser. 4.6).

 

While the three Divine Persons differ from one another precisely as Father, Son and Holy Spirit, they are nevertheless conjoined in all their distinctiveness, for the entire and undivided Godhead resides in each Person, and each Person dwells in or inheres in the Other; so that the whole of one Person is imaged in the whole of the Other. In the terms used by Athanasius, "There is only one Form (eidos) of Godhead" (Athanasius, De syn. 52; Con. Ar. 3.16). Thus the Son reveals the Father as his complete image, and the Spirit does the same to the Son. The Father is revealed through the Son in the Holy Spirit, and it is in the Spirit and through the Son that we come to the Father. Each and all reveal the whole Godhead, and thus none can be regarded as being partial in any way as compared with the other two: each Person is "whole God" and the "whole God" is in each Person. Since "God is Spirit" (John 4.24) the "whole God" and "each Person" and all relations within the Holy Trinity are to be understood in a completely spiritual way.

 

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 Eternal relations in God

The three Divine Persons are also conjoined through their special relations. Thus the Son is eternally begotten of the Father and the Spirit eternally proceeds from the Father and abides in the Son, in ineffable ways that are beyond all time (achronos), beyond all origin (anarchos), and beyond all cause (anaitios). The generation of the Son and the procession of the Spirit are unknowable mysteries which cannot be explained by recourse to human or creaturely images, although some images (e.g. Light from Light) may provide a way for us to grasp some aspects of the reality to which they are used to refer (cf. Athanasius, Con. Ar. 2.36; Cyril of Jerusalem, Cat. 11.11). They indicate distinctions in relations not partitions or divisions. "Differentiated as the Persons are, the entire and undivided Godhead is one in Each". "Each of these Persons is entirely united to those with whom he is conjoined, as he is with himself, because of the identity of Being and Power that is between them" (Gregory the Theologian, Or. 31.14, 16). The three Persons of the Holy Trinity are thus to be heard and known, worshipped and glorified "as one Person (prosopon)" (Didymus, De Trin. 2.36; Cyril of Alexandria, In Jn. 15.1).

 

The three Divine Persons are also inseparably conjoined in all the manifestations of God's activity, in creation, providence, revelation, and salvation, as they are consummated in the Incarnate Economy of the Son. In fact all divine activity begins with the Father, extends through the Son and reaches its fulfilment in the Spirit. Thus, as St Basil taught, creation is initiated by the Father, effected by the Son and perfected by the Spirit (De Spir. Sanct. 16.38).

 

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 The order of divine persons in the trinity

In the Trinitarian formulae of the New Testament, as Gregory the Theologian, among others, pointed out, there is a variation in the order in which "the Father", "the Son", and the "Holy Spirit" are mentioned, which indicates that the order does not detract from full equality between the three Divine Persons (Gregory the Theologian, Or. 36.15). Nevertheless, as we learn from the institution of Holy baptism, there is a significant coordination which places the Father first, the Son second, and the Spirit third (cf. Athanasius, Ad Ser. 3.5 ; Basil, Ep. 125.3). The priority of the Father does not imply that there is something more in him compared to the Son, for all that the Father is the Son is apart from "Fatherhood", and likewise all that the Son is the Spirit is apart from "Sonship". Thus the order inherent in the Trinitarian relations is grounded on the fact that the Son is begotten of the Father and the Spirit proceeds from the Father. This applies also to the unique revelation of the Father through the Incarnation of his only begotten Son and the sending of the Holy Spirit by the Father in the name of the Son.

 

This priority of the Father or Monarchy of the Father within the Trinity does not detract from the fact that the Father is not properly (kurios) Father apart from the Son and the Spirit, that the Son is not properly Son apart from the Father and the Spirit, and that the Spirit is not properly Spirit apart from the Father and the Son. Hence the Monarchia of the Father is perfectly what it is in the Father's relation to the Son and the Spirit within the one indivisible Being of God. "The perfection of the Holy Trinity is an indivisible and single Godhead" (Athanasius, Ad Ser. 1.33).

 

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Timothychen

 Trinity in unity and unity in trinity, the one monarchy

Since there is only one Trinity in Unity, and one Unity in Trinity, there is only one indivisible Godhead, and only one Arche (arche) or Monarchia (monarchia). As such, however, Gregory the Theologian reminds us, "It is a Monarchy that is not limited to one Person" (Or. 29.2). "The Godhead is one in Three, and the Three are One, in whom all the Godhead is, or, to be more precise, who are the Godhead" (Or. 39.11). "Each person is God when considered in himself; as the Father, so the Son, and as the Son, so the Holy Spirit; the Three One God when contemplated together; Each God because consubstantial; one God because of the Monarchy. I cannot think of the One without being enlightened by the splendour of the Three; not can I distinguish them without being carried back to the One" (Gregory the Theologian, Or. 40.41). "In proclaiming the divine Monarchia we do not err, but confess the Trinity, and Trinity in Unity, One Godhead of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit (ten triada, monada en triadi, kai triada en monadi, mian theoteta patros kai huiou, kai hagiou pneumatos) (Epiphanius, Haer. 62.3). The mia arche or Monarchia is inseparable from the Trinity, the Monas from the Trias. As such the Monarchy of the Father within the Trinity is not exclusive of the Monarchy of the whole undivided Trinity in relation to the whole of creation. Hence all worship and glorification by the creature is offered "to God the Father through the Son and in the Spirit" or "to the Father with the Son and together with the Holy Spirit", that is, to the one indivisible God who is Three in One and One in Three, the Holy Trinity who is blessed for ever.

 

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 Perichoresis: the mutual indwelling of Father, Son and Holy Spirit

1>The Holy Trinity remains invariable, known in one Godhead and one Monarchy, but in which Each of the three Divine Persons indwells and is indwelt by the Others. "They reciprocally contain One Another, so that One permanently envelopes, and is permanently enveloped by, the Other whom he yet envelopes" (Hilary, De Trin. 3.1). It is in the light of this eternal perichoresis of the three Divine Persons in God, or the co-indwelling and co-inhering of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit in One Another, that we are to understand the mission of the Holy Spirit from the Father and the gift of the Holy Spirit by the Son. The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father, but because of the unity of the Godhead in which each Person is perfectly and wholly God, he proceeds from the Father through the Son for the Spirit belongs to and is inseparable from the Being of the Father and of the Son. He receives from the Son and through him is given to us. Thus "We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and Giver of Life, who proceeds from the Father, who with the Father and the Son is worshipped and glorified, who spoke by the prophets." (The Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed). It is precisely with the doctrine of the consubstantiality and Deity of the Holy Spirit that the proper understanding of the Holy Trinity is brought to its completion in the theology and worship of the Church. And it is with the doctrine of the Trinity that the adoration and knowledge of God reach their perfection. This is the faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, that we worship One God in Trinity and Trinity in Unity.

 

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 One being, three persons

The faith and confession of the "One Being (ousia), Three Persons" (Synod of Alex, 362/1) does not rest on any preconception or definition of the Divine Being, but on the very Being of God as he has named himself "I am who I am/I shall be who I shall be" (Ex 3.14), the ever-living and self-revealing God who truly and really is, besides whom there is no other God. This revelation of God as "he who is who he is" is mediated to us in the Gospel through the one act of God the Father, through the Son and in the Spirit. Thus in the doctrine of the Holy Trinity the "One Being" of God does not refer to some abstract essence, but to the "I am" (ego eimi) of God, the eternal living Being which God is of himself (Athanasius, Con. Ar. 3.6; 4.1; De syn. 34-36; De decr. 22). Similarly the faith and confession of the Unity in Trinity and Trinity in Unity does not presuppose some prior definition of the relation of the three Divine Persons to the one Divine Being or vice versa; it rests on the one revelation of God the Father which is given us through Jesus Christ and his Spirit.

 

1>Thus in confessing the Divine Unity in Trinity we do not presuppose precise knowledge of "what" God is in his One Being or "how" he is Three in One and One in Three, but we believe in him as One God, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, and profess knowledge of him in accordance with this one revelation handed on to the Church through the Apostles. That is the one Faith in which we are baptized and on which the whole Church rests.

 

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 The apostolic and catholic faith

In the words of St Athanasius: "It is the very tradition, teaching and faith of the Catholic Church from the beginning, which the Lord gave, the Apostles preached and the Fathers kept upon which the Church is founded ... that there is a Trinity, Holy and complete, confessed to be God in Father, Son and Holy Spirit, having nothing foreign or external, nor composed of one who creates and one who is originated, but all creative, consistent, indivisible in nature, one in activity. The Father does all things through the Word in the Holy Spirit. Thus, the Unity of the Holy Trinity is preserved and thus One God is preached in the Church, who is over all and through all and in all (Eph 4.16) - "over all" as Father, as beginning and fountain; "through all" through the Word; but "in all" in the Holy Spirit. It is a Trinity not only in name and form of speech, but in truth and actuality. For as the Father is he who he is, so also his Word is one who is God over all, and the Holy Spirit is not without existence but truly exists and subsists." (Ad Ser. 1.28)

米格

以下是引用Timothychen在2009-6-10 22:46:00的发言：

 

新教=改革宗？

荣耀归主

请解释一下马太福音3章16~17节经文

Timothychen

以下是引用米格在2009-6-10 22:48:00的发言：

新教=改革宗？

老兄，你上面是如此说的：

“对于天主教和新教，圣灵由圣父圣子共发”，意思是说包括天主教和新教的全体都是认为圣灵共发论。

 

我上面提出了新教里面的重要宗派——改革宗教会就不同意共发论。这一个反论就足够了。

你只能说“对于天主教和部分新教宗派，圣灵由圣父圣子共发”，明白？

米格

以下是引用Timothychen在2009-6-11 0:05:00的发言：

老兄，你上面是如此说的：

“对于天主教和新教，圣灵由圣父圣子共发”，意思是说包括天主教和新教的全体都是认为圣灵共发论。

 

我上面提出了新教里面的重要宗派——改革宗教会就不同意共发论。这一个反论就足够了。

你只能说“对于天主教和部分新教宗派，圣灵由圣父圣子共发”，明白？

新教任意一种观点可以占据主流，但会有个别教派会例外，因此无论是来自天主教还是来自新教，关于新教的任何判断，是在包含个例的情况，这是常识，你不知道？

不信你可以找找网站对于新教的介绍资料看。

 

新教还有教派不信三位一体的，但相信这里的人都不会“新教也是持守三一正信的"这个结论的。

[此贴子已经被作者于2009-6-11 8:20:56编辑过]

prodigal777

亚他那修信经

 

1．凡人欲得救，首先当持守大公教会信仰。

2．此信仰，凡守之不全不正者，必永远沉沦。

3．大公教会信仰即！我等敬拜一体三位，而三位一体之神，

4．其位不紊，其体不分。

5．父一位，子一位，圣灵亦一位。

6．然而父子圣灵同一神性，同一荣耀，亦同一永恒之尊严。

7．父如何，子如何，圣灵亦如何。

8．父不受造，子不受造，圣灵亦不受造。

9．父无限，子无限，圣灵亦无限。

10．父永恒，子永恒，圣灵亦永恒。

11．非三永恒者，乃一永恒者。

12．亦非三不受造者，非三无限者，乃一不受造者，一无限者。

13．如是，父全能，子全能，圣灵亦全能。

14．然而，非三全能者，乃一全能者。

15．如是，父是神，子是神，圣灵亦是神。

16．然而，非三神，乃一神。

17．如是，父是主，子是主，圣灵亦是主。

18．然而，非三主，乃一主。

19．依基督真道，我等不得不认三位均为神，均为主。

20．依大公教，我等亦不得谓神有三，亦不得谓主有三。

21．父非由谁作成：既非受造，亦非受生。

22．子独由于父：非作成，亦非受造；而为受生。

23．圣灵由于父与子：既非作成，亦非受造，亦非受生；而为发出。23. The Holy Spirit is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.

24．如是，有一父，非三父，有一子，非三子，有一圣灵，非三圣灵。

25．且此三位无分先后，无别尊卑。

26．三位乃均永恒，而同等。

27．由是如前所言，我等当敬拜一体三位，而三位一体之神。

28．所以凡欲得救者，必如是而思三位一体之神。

29．再者，为求得永恒救赎，彼亦必笃信我等之主耶稣基督成为人身。

30．依真正信仰，我等信认神之子我等之主耶稣基督，为神，又为人。

31．其为神，与圣父同体，受生于诸世界之先；其为人，与其母同体，诞生于此世界。

32．全神，亦全人，具有理性之灵，血肉之身。

33．依其为神，与父同等，依其为人，少逊于父。

34．彼虽为神，亦为人，然非为二，乃为一基督。

35．彼为一，非由于变神为血肉，乃由于使其人性进入于神。

36．合为一；非由二性相混，乃由位格为一。

37．如灵与身成为一人，神与人成为一基督。

38．彼为救我等而受难，降至阴间，第三日从死复活。

39．升天，坐于全能神父之右。

40．将来必从彼处降临，审判活人死人。

41．彼降临时，万人必具身体复活；

42．并供认所行之事。

43．行善者必入永生，作恶者必入永火。

44．此乃大公教会信仰，人除非笃实相信，必不能得救。
亚他那修信经支持圣灵不光是由父神发出，也是由子发出的。

Timothychen

以下是引用米格在2009-6-11 7:54:00的发言：

新教任意一种观点可以占据主流，但会有个别教派会例外，因此无论是来自天主教还是来自新教，关于新教的任何判断，是在包含个例的情况，这是常识，你不知道？

不信你可以找找网站对于新教的介绍资料看。

 

新教还有教派不信三位一体的，但相信这里的人都不会“新教也是持守三一正信的"这个结论的。

[此贴子已经被作者于2009-6-11 8:20:56编辑过]

哈哈 ，老兄，原来在你眼中全球享有盛誉的WARC是“个别教派”！我很服你了！而且“关于新教的任何判断。是在包含个例的情况”，并且还是“常识”。很抱歉，我从没听说过这个所谓的“常识”。我认识的新教朋友就在预定论主义、末世论模型 、圣礼论形态分歧颇多，甚至在基督论上都争论不少，我不知道这个所谓的“任何判断”是如何“包含个例情况”！在三一论上，我就和改革宗的不少牧师探讨过，上面WARC的信理申明就是探讨的结果。

提醒你下，这个论坛的版主是很倾向改革宗的噢！

米格

以下是引用Timothychen在2009-6-11 22:43:00的发言：

哈哈 ，老兄，原来在你眼中全球享有盛誉的WARC是“个别教派”！我很服你了！而且“关于新教的任何判断。是在包含个例的情况”，并且还是“常识”。很抱歉，我从没听说过这个所谓的“常识”。我认识的新教朋友就在预定论主义、末世论模型 、圣礼论形态分歧颇多，甚至在基督论上都争论不少，我不知道这个所谓的“任何判断”是如何“包含个例情况”！在三一论上，我就和改革宗的不少牧师探讨过，上面WARC的信理申明就是探讨的结果。

提醒你下，这个论坛的版主是很倾向改革宗的噢！

这应该既是所谓的“扯根鸡毛当令箭”吧

既然你认为版主是加尔文宗的信徒，加尔文宗是否信奉希腊人邪说，问一问不就知道了。不过从版主提供的属灵资料来看，都不是宣认圣灵单发的。希腊人的阉人信经连影子都没有。

反正这个论坛相信加尔文道理的网友多得是，问下有几个人搭理过你找到的这份生命？有几个人知道希腊人的阉货信经。只要问一问，你提出改革宗相信阉人信经伪命题也就不攻自破了。

WARC不多是214个教会的统称，还真没听说过她有为这214个教会制定教理的权利。既然没这个权利，她和希腊教徒达成的生命也就无足轻重了。大部分改革宗信徒都相信 威斯敏斯特信条 知道多特信经，却不知道你的这份声明。换句话说，你的声明更这些改革宗的权威信条比起来也就无足轻重了。

威斯敏斯特信条 海德堡教理问答 比利时信条 都是宣认圣灵由圣父圣子共发，丝毫看不到单发论异端的影子。

[此贴子已经被作者于2009-7-2 0:18:39编辑过]