讨论：你相信默示论吗？

小天牛

默示论是所有自称正统的教义所持守的，本人在这个方面有一点疑惑：

人和神在默示之中的合作，究竟谁占多大的比重？

有很多人用上帝第二位格（圣子）的神人二性和圣经的神人合作相比较

说圣经是100%人的手笔也是100%神的手笔

但是“默示”的原意是这个吗？

刚才查了一下希伯来原文，默示往往是“重担”的意思，引申为“异象”“启示”

呵呵，非常之figurative

经文记录的事情是上帝的启示，但是经文本身可以算作上帝的启示吗？

（我在这一点上倾向于卡尔·巴特，他说圣经在读经者这里才成为上帝的话语，对于不信者来说，圣经就是一文学作品）

至于“重担”... 就像保罗说的，不传福音就有祸了。it's a mission entrusted to him to be undertaken

但保罗用的是希腊文，原文意思是“breathed”，同时代的希腊文作者总爱寻求缪斯给他们灵感，用的就是这个词

breathed 这个词怎么理解？

总不能说 “维吉尔的史诗都是缪斯所默示的”吧，呵呵

最关键的一点，是这两句经文带出的问题：

【提后3:15】 并且知道你是从小明白圣经。这圣经能使你因信基督耶稣有得救的智慧。

【提后3:16】 圣经都是神所默示的（或作凡神所默示的圣经），于教训，督责，使人归正，教导人学义，都是有益的。
 

根据上下文，这里的“圣经”是指希伯来圣经，即旧约，绝对不可能包括这篇书信在内的新约。

（保罗的书信成书最早，早于福音书。我甚至怀疑保罗当时有没有可能想到自己的书信会在日后被当作与希伯来圣经同等地位的经文看待）

也就是说即使默示论成立，这一节经文也不可以作为默示论可以应用于整本圣经的证据

新约的地位如何确保？当然，当时有人提出使徒权威等四条，但是，这四条之中没有一条提到神

如何确定新约也是神的话语？默示究竟意味着什么?

大家来见仁见智一下吧

小天牛

把经上所有和默示论有关的经文都贴在这里，别眼晕：

【撒上3:1】   童子撒母耳在以利面前事奉耶和华。当那些日子，耶和华的言语稀少，不常有默示。
The boy Samuel ministered before the Lord under Eli. In those days the word of the Lord was rare; there were not many visions.
And the child Samuel ministered unto the LORD before Eli. And the word of the LORD was precious in those days; there was no open vision.
Now the young Samuel was the servant of the Lord before Eli. In those days the Lord kept his word secret from men; there was no open vision.
【撒上3:7】   那时撒母耳还未认识耶和华，也未得耶和华的默示。
Now Samuel did not yet know the Lord : The word of the Lord had not yet been revealed to him.
Now Samuel did not yet know the LORD, neither was the word of the LORD yet revealed unto him.
Now at that time Samuel had no knowledge of the Lord, and the revelation of the word of the Lord had not come to him.
【撒上3:15】  撒母耳睡到天亮，就开了耶和华的殿门，不敢将默示告诉以利。
Samuel lay down until morning and then opened the doors of the house of the Lord . He was afraid to tell Eli the vision,
And Samuel lay until the morning, and opened the doors of the house of the LORD. And Samuel feared to show Eli the vision.
And Samuel kept where he was, not moving till the time came for opening the doors of the house of God in the morning. And fear kept him from giving Eli an account of his vision.
【撒上3:21】  耶和华又在示罗显现。因为耶和华将自己的话默示撒母耳，撒母耳就把这话传遍以色列地。
The Lord continued to appear at Shiloh, and there he revealed himself to Samuel through his word.
And the LORD appeared again in Shiloh: for the LORD revealed himself to Samuel in Shiloh by the word of the LORD.
And the Lord was seen again in Shiloh; for the Lord gave to Samuel in Shiloh the revelation of his word.
【撒下7:17】  拿单就按这一切话，照这默示，告诉大卫。
Nathan reported to David all the words of this entire revelation.
According to all these words, and according to all this vision, so did Nathan speak unto David.
So Nathan gave David an account of all these words and this vision.
【代上17:15】 拿单就按这一切话，照这默示告诉大卫。
Nathan reported to David all the words of this entire revelation.
According to all these words, and according to all this vision, so did Nathan speak unto David.
So Nathan gave David an account of all these words and this vision.
【代下9:29】  所罗门其余的事，自始至终，不都写在先知拿单的书上和示罗人亚希雅的预言书上，并先见易多论尼八儿子耶罗波安的默示书上吗？
As for the other events of Solomon's reign, from beginning to end, are they not written in the records of Nathan the prophet, in the prophecy of Ahijah the Shilonite and in the visions of Iddo the seer concerning Jeroboam son of Nebat?
Now the rest of the acts of Solomon, first and last, are they not written in the book of Nathan the prophet, and in the prophecy of Ahijah the Shilonite, and in the visions of Iddo the seer against Jeroboam the son of Nebat?
Now the rest of the acts of Solomon, first and last, are they not recorded in the history of Nathan the prophet, and in the words of Ahijah the prophet of Shiloh, and in the visions of Iddo the seer about Jeroboam, the son of Nebat?
【代下26:5】  通晓神默示，撒迦利亚在世的时候，乌西雅定意寻求神。他寻求耶和华，神就使他亨通。
He sought God during the days of Zechariah, who instructed him in the fear of God. As long as he sought the Lord , God gave him success.
And he sought God in the days of Zechariah, who had understanding in the visions of God: and as long as he sought the LORD, God made him to prosper.
He gave himself to searching after God in the days of Zechariah, who made men wise in the fear of God; and as long as he was true to the Lord, God made things go well for him.
【代下32:32】 希西家其余的事和他的善行，都写在亚摩斯的儿子先知以赛亚的默示书上，和犹大，以色列的诸王记上。
The other events of Hezekiah's reign and his acts of devotion are written in the vision of the prophet Isaiah son of Amoz in the book of the kings of Judah and Israel.
Now the rest of the acts of Hezekiah, and his goodness, behold, they are written in the vision of Isaiah the prophet, the son of Amoz, and in the book of the kings of Judah and Israel.
Now the rest of the acts of Hezekiah, and the good he did, are recorded in the vision of Isaiah the prophet, the son of Amoz, and in the book of the kings of Judah and Israel.
【伯4:12】   我暗暗地得了默示。我耳朵也听其细微的声音。
'A word was secretly brought to me, my ears caught a whisper of it.
Now a thing was secretly brought to me, and mine ear received a little thereof.
A word was given to me secretly, and the low sound of it came to my ears.

小天牛

【箴29:18】  没有异象，（或作默示）民就放肆。惟遵守律法的，便为有福。
Where there is no revelation, the people cast off restraint; but blessed is he who keeps the law.
Where there is no vision, the people perish: but he that keepeth the law, happy is he.
Where there is no vision, the people are uncontrolled; but he who keeps the law will be happy.
【赛1:1】    当乌西雅，约坦，亚哈斯，希西家，作犹大王的时候，亚摩斯的儿子以赛亚得默示，论到犹大和耶路撒冷。
The vision concerning Judah and Jerusalem that Isaiah son of Amoz saw during the reigns of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz and Hezekiah, kings of Judah.
The vision of Isaiah the son of Amoz, which he saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah.
The vision of Isaiah, the son of Amoz, which he saw about Judah and Jerusalem, in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah.
【赛2:1】    亚摩斯的儿子以赛亚得默示，论到犹大和耶路撒冷。
This is what Isaiah son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem:
The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem.
The word which Isaiah, the son of Amoz, saw about Judah and Jerusalem.
【赛13:1】   亚摩斯的儿子以赛亚得默示论巴比伦。
An oracle concerning Babylon that Isaiah son of Amoz saw:
The burden of Babylon, which Isaiah the son of Amoz did see.
The word of the Lord about Babylon which Isaiah, the son of Amoz, saw.
【赛14:28】  亚哈斯王崩的那年，就有以下的默示。
This oracle came in the year King Ahaz died:
In the year that king Ahaz died was this burden.
In the year of the death of King Ahaz this word came to the prophet:
【赛15:1】   论摩押的默示。一夜之间，摩押的亚珥，变为荒废，归于无有。一夜之间，摩押的基珥，变为荒废，归于无有。
An oracle concerning Moab:  Ar in Moab is ruined,  destroyed in a night!  Kir in Moab is ruined,  destroyed in a night!
The burden of Moab. Because in the night Ar of Moab is laid waste, and brought to silence; because in the night Kir of Moab is laid waste, and brought to silence;
The word about Moab. For in a night Ar of Moab has become waste, and is seen no longer; for in a night Kir of Moab has become waste, and is seen no longer.
【赛17:1】   论大马色的默示。看哪，大马色已被废弃，不再为城，必变作乱堆。
An oracle concerning Damascus:  'See, Damascus will no longer be a city  but will become a heap of ruins.
The burden of Damascus. Behold, Damascus is taken away from being a city, and it shall be a ruinous heap.
The word about Damascus. See, they have made Damascus a town no longer; it has become a waste place.
【赛19:1】   论埃及的默示。看哪，耶和华乘驾快云，临到埃及。埃及的偶像在他面前战兢。埃及人的心在里面消化。
An oracle concerning Egypt:  See, the Lord rides on a swift cloud  and is coming to Egypt.  The idols of Egypt tremble before him,  and the hearts of the Egyptians melt within them.
The burden of Egypt. Behold, the LORD rideth upon a swift cloud, and shall come into Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall be moved at his presence, and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it.
The word about Egypt. See, the Lord is seated on a quick-moving cloud, and is coming to Egypt: and the false gods of Egypt will be troubled at his coming, and the heart of Egypt will be turned to water.
【赛21:1】   论海旁旷野的默示。有仇敌从旷野，从可怕之地而来，好像南方的旋风，猛然扫过。
An oracle concerning the Desert by the Sea:  Like whirlwinds sweeping through the southland,  an invader comes from the desert,  from a land of terror.
The burden of the desert of the sea. As whirlwinds in the south pass through; so it cometh from the desert, from a terrible land.
The word about the waste land. As storm-winds in the South go rushing through, it comes from the waste land, from the land greatly to be feared.

小天牛

【箴29:18】  没有异象，（或作默示）民就放肆。惟遵守律法的，便为有福。
Where there is no revelation, the people cast off restraint; but blessed is he who keeps the law.
Where there is no vision, the people perish: but he that keepeth the law, happy is he.
Where there is no vision, the people are uncontrolled; but he who keeps the law will be happy.
【赛1:1】    当乌西雅，约坦，亚哈斯，希西家，作犹大王的时候，亚摩斯的儿子以赛亚得默示，论到犹大和耶路撒冷。
The vision concerning Judah and Jerusalem that Isaiah son of Amoz saw during the reigns of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz and Hezekiah, kings of Judah.
The vision of Isaiah the son of Amoz, which he saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah.
The vision of Isaiah, the son of Amoz, which he saw about Judah and Jerusalem, in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah.
【赛2:1】    亚摩斯的儿子以赛亚得默示，论到犹大和耶路撒冷。
This is what Isaiah son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem:
The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem.
The word which Isaiah, the son of Amoz, saw about Judah and Jerusalem.
【赛13:1】   亚摩斯的儿子以赛亚得默示论巴比伦。
An oracle concerning Babylon that Isaiah son of Amoz saw:
The burden of Babylon, which Isaiah the son of Amoz did see.
The word of the Lord about Babylon which Isaiah, the son of Amoz, saw.
【赛14:28】  亚哈斯王崩的那年，就有以下的默示。
This oracle came in the year King Ahaz died:
In the year that king Ahaz died was this burden.
In the year of the death of King Ahaz this word came to the prophet:
【赛15:1】   论摩押的默示。一夜之间，摩押的亚珥，变为荒废，归于无有。一夜之间，摩押的基珥，变为荒废，归于无有。
An oracle concerning Moab:  Ar in Moab is ruined,  destroyed in a night!  Kir in Moab is ruined,  destroyed in a night!
The burden of Moab. Because in the night Ar of Moab is laid waste, and brought to silence; because in the night Kir of Moab is laid waste, and brought to silence;
The word about Moab. For in a night Ar of Moab has become waste, and is seen no longer; for in a night Kir of Moab has become waste, and is seen no longer.
【赛17:1】   论大马色的默示。看哪，大马色已被废弃，不再为城，必变作乱堆。
An oracle concerning Damascus:  'See, Damascus will no longer be a city  but will become a heap of ruins.
The burden of Damascus. Behold, Damascus is taken away from being a city, and it shall be a ruinous heap.
The word about Damascus. See, they have made Damascus a town no longer; it has become a waste place.
【赛19:1】   论埃及的默示。看哪，耶和华乘驾快云，临到埃及。埃及的偶像在他面前战兢。埃及人的心在里面消化。
An oracle concerning Egypt:  See, the Lord rides on a swift cloud  and is coming to Egypt.  The idols of Egypt tremble before him,  and the hearts of the Egyptians melt within them.
The burden of Egypt. Behold, the LORD rideth upon a swift cloud, and shall come into Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall be moved at his presence, and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it.
The word about Egypt. See, the Lord is seated on a quick-moving cloud, and is coming to Egypt: and the false gods of Egypt will be troubled at his coming, and the heart of Egypt will be turned to water.
【赛21:1】   论海旁旷野的默示。有仇敌从旷野，从可怕之地而来，好像南方的旋风，猛然扫过。
An oracle concerning the Desert by the Sea:  Like whirlwinds sweeping through the southland,  an invader comes from the desert,  from a land of terror.
The burden of the desert of the sea. As whirlwinds in the south pass through; so it cometh from the desert, from a terrible land.
The word about the waste land. As storm-winds in the South go rushing through, it comes from the waste land, from the land greatly to be feared.

小天牛

【哈1:1】    先知哈巴谷所得的默示。
The oracle that Habakkuk the prophet received.
The burden which Habakkuk the prophet did see.
The word which Habakkuk the prophet saw.
【哈2:2】    他对我说，将这默示明明地写在版上，使读的人容易读（或作随跑随读）。
Then the Lord replied: 'Write down the revelation and make it plain on tablets so that a herald may run with it.
And the LORD answered me, and said, Write the vision, and make it plain upon tables, that he may run that readeth it.
And the Lord gave me an answer, and said, Put the vision in writing and make it clear on stones, so that the reader may go quickly.
【哈2:3】    因为这默示有一定的日期，快要应验，并不虚谎。虽然迟延，还要等候。因为必然临到，不再迟延。
For the revelation awaits an appointed time; it speaks of the end and will not prove false. Though it linger, wait for it; it will certainly come and will not delay.
For the vision is yet for an appointed time, but at the end it shall speak, and not lie: though it tarry, wait for it; because it will surely come, it will not tarry.
For the vision is still for the fixed time, and it is moving quickly to the end, and it will not be false: even if it is slow in coming, go on waiting for it; because it will certainly come, it will not be kept back.
【亚9:1】    耶和华的默示应验在哈得拉地，大马色（世人和以色列各支派的眼目都仰望耶和华）。
The word of the Lord is against the land of Hadrach  and will rest upon Damascus-  for the eyes of men and all the tribes of Israel  are on the Lord -
The burden of the word of the LORD in the land of Hadrach, and Damascus shall be the rest thereof: when the eyes of man, as of all the tribes of Israel, shall be toward the LORD.
A word of the Lord: The Lord has come to the land of Hadrach, and Damascus is his resting-place: for the towns of Aram are the Lord's,
【亚12:1】   耶和华论以色列的默示。铺张诸天，建立地基，造人里面之灵的耶和华说。
This is the word of the Lord concerning Israel. The Lord , who stretches out the heavens, who lays the foundation of the earth, and who forms the spirit of man within him, declares:
The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.
The word of the Lord about Israel. The Lord by whom the heavens are stretched out and the bases of the earth put in place, and the spirit of man formed inside him, has said:
【亚12:2】   我必使耶路撒冷被围困的时候，向四围列国的民成为令人昏醉的杯，这默示也论到犹大（或作犹大也是如此）。
'I am going to make Jerusalem a cup that sends all the surrounding peoples reeling. Judah will be besieged as well as Jerusalem.
Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem.
See, I will make Jerusalem a cup of shaking fear to all the peoples round about, when Jerusalem is shut in.
【玛1:1】    耶和华借玛拉基传给以色列的默示。
An oracle: The word of the Lord to Israel through Malachi.
The burden of the word of the LORD to Israel by Malachi.
The word of the Lord to Israel by Malachi.
【提后3:16】  圣经都是神所默示的（或作凡神所默示的圣经），于教训，督责，使人归正，教导人学义，都是有益的。
All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
Every holy Writing which comes from God is of profit for teaching, for training, for guiding, for education in righteousness:

小天牛

谢谢啊，贴这么多写这么多，没有功劳也有苦劳吧，没有苦劳也有疲劳吧

平安在心

楼主真是辛苦 辛苦 !

james_mo

“信心软弱的，你们要接纳，但不要辩论所疑惑的事。”   罗14：1

anewman

这就是一个神学论点
就是要辩论疑惑的事达到让人对神产生疑惑的目的。

james_mo

每个神学的论点自从被提出以来就被许许多多的人反反复复地辩论，一直到现在都没停止过。所谓成功的论点不过被大部分的教会所认同。

若DXJM自认自己已达到了某种水平，你去找那些神学家辩去。不然，只会对那些稍微软弱的、神话语的根基不太稳的DXJM产生负面影响。