关于安息日会辩论的麻烦

恩泉

这位朋友，我不知道你信的究竟是谁，不过根据你说的话看的出来你是信人而不是信主自己，一个信主自己的人会把目光放在主自己的身上而不是放在任何人的身上，一个信主的人首先是承认自己的悖逆而不是指责别人的悖逆，多看看“自己”，主正在为“自己”伤心呢。

以下是引用suchen在2003-7-10 23:09:13的发言： 约拿兄在19楼中说:安息日会所谓的“守诫命”其实只有一条，那就是守安息日。这也是安息日会标榜自己是余民教会的夸口之处。好像十条诫命只剩下守安息日这一条了，甚至安息日会的讲章和安息日学的教材上明目张胆的说，守安息日是十诫当中最大的一条。 我觉得有些不可思议!难道基督复临安息日会的教友只守第四诫吗?他们有拜偶像吗？有守人的遗传吗？我反而见到不少第一日教会的牧师不要说安息日这一诫，就连其他的诫命都不守，有的搞婚外恋，有的争权夺势、有的不孝敬父母、有的为了得到某东西可以对弟兄姊妹不择手段……我真不知上帝会不会喜悦他们，他们还一直在自称自己是对的。 唉！这不信悖逆的世代啊！这些不信顽梗的世人啊！主耶稣正为你们伤心呢！！！ 没想到今晚以利亚的用户不能用了,如今只能再申请个将我最后的几句话说完就OK了!!!

约拿

以下是引用suchen在2003-7-10 23:13:08的发言： 安息日会同摩门教一样

　　安息日会同摩门教一样，我很同意这句话。因为摩门教本身就是一个很明显的异端。大家也来认识一下摩门教吧： 　　十六十七世纪是基督教各宗派兴起的时期，各地有许多属灵运动。接著十七十八世纪基督教便开展宣教时期。摩门教是在这一宣教时期所产生。这一段时期有个特色是：别异神学纷纷产生，摩门教是其中一个别异神学。 　　摩门教创始人Joseph Smith(1805-1844)生在美国一个贫苦的家庭，受的教育不高，因要随其父亲去淘金。 　　据称1823年9月Joseph Smith在美国纽约的住处看见异象，他被圣父圣子膏为『真正基督教先知』。后来又遇见Moromni的天使，这个天使给他一本金页的书，就是《摩门经》，用神秘文字写成。1827年天使赐下神秘眼镜，称为乌陵土明，方翻译此书成功。1830年他创立第一所摩门教会，当 时会员有六人。1833年他出版一本《诫命书》，1835年出版《教义和诸约》。提倡一夫多妻制。 　　1844年6月27日Joseph Smith与其弟 Hallin Smith在监狱后审时，被一群愤怒的民众，冲入监狱，将二人枪杀。据说是因为二人荒淫无度、淫人妻女，早就常常进出法庭。 　　因为他们提倡一夫多妻制，便有群众的压力反弹。1843年Smith就宣称神的启示允许自己实行真正的多婚制，于是暴乱爆发、1844年被暴徒杀死。其继承人Young自己更是有27名妻子，多妻的传统令他们与美国当地政府不和，于是1890年，摩门教的主席建议会众随从当地法律。 　　Joseph Smith死后，Brigham Young为继承人，重振摩门教，（因为在当地摩门教声名败坏）于是向西发展，迁至犹他州盐湖城。教名为『末世圣徒教会』(Church of Jesus Christ of the Latter Day Saints)设主席一人，使徒十二人，统治全教。 （神学比较） 　　一、他们认为有一个地方既非天国、也非地狱，一些人死后便至该处。那地方不像地狱使灵魂受苦，只是灵魂被放逐。当时很多对圣经真理不清楚的人大量加入摩门教，因为许多人自认为自己好也没好的能够进天国，坏也没坏到一定下地狱，所以这些人非常喜欢摩门教。这点与基督教不同，因为基督教的信仰是绝对的区分『义』与『恶』，义人进天国、恶人被抛弃在天国外。全部的人都是『恶』的，唯有透过耶稣，于人才有了『义』的生命，开始过成圣的生活。 　　二、摩门教的信仰宣言很多，以Joseph Smith和Brigham Young的话最为权威。而基督教是以『圣经』神的话为最高权威。 　　三、摩门教否认「因信称义」的圣经要义。 （上帝论） 　　1. 上帝是血肉之躯（教义与圣约130:22）。 　　2. 否认三位一体，主张（多神论）。　 　　3. （亚当神论）杨百翰认为亚当是创造的神。斯密约瑟说：上帝是人；上帝从前也是个人。 （基督论） 　　1. 基督与人同是上帝属灵的儿女。只有程度上的分别，而非性质上的。（基督是首生的，是神人交合而生。。。） 　　2. 否认圣灵感孕。 　　3. 耶稣多妻。 （圣灵论） 　　1. 是一位（灵体）的人物，貌似父神（圣教130:20）但没有圣父、圣子的肉体。 　　2. 以人的形象出现（尼腓壹书11:11）。 （救恩论） 　　1. 人有前生。前生是诸灵。上帝造人于地上。（创2:7） 　　2. 亚当犯罪堕落，是人类顺服上帝的表现，引致幸福的途径。使诸灵有肉身的居所。 　　3. 否定原罪。 　　4. 反对因信称义。 　　摩门教后改称“耶稣基督未世圣徒教会”。摩门教的经典有以下四部：《新旧约圣经》，《摩门经》，《圣约与教义》，《无价的珍珠》。

依枝

以下是引用suchen在2003-7-10 23:10:53的发言： 我还是想继续的，因为段琦是从旁观者的角度来证明真理，并不像一些假冒为善的人那样带着偏见在攻击，虽然段琦是非基督徒，但我认为她所说的话是比较合理的！ 主啊!求你可怜这些人吧!!!

　　这位朋友，不知道你信的是谁？ 　　你怎么光拿别人的书当作是真理呢？圣经几千年来，一直都没有改变，难道不是真理吗？ 　　段绮不管是从旁观者的角度，还是从中立的角度，说到底她终究是一个人的角度，并不能超越我们的　神！她的话无论说的如何的合理，也不能与圣经相比！ 　　请你回到圣经里，回到主的面前吧！安息日会被定为是异端，并不是你贴几篇文章就能掩盖掉的，求主也同样可怜你！

约拿

在你的眼里，安息日会唯一的错误就是臆测日子。这也属于一种避重就轻的偷梁换柱法。怪不得你会以事奉异端为荣。 有空你去翻看前面的帖子，看看安息日会是不是只有臆测日子这么一条错误。你也顺便看看安息日会信徒的回帖，看看他们当中有哪一个承认过安息日会的错误？ 使徒所传的纯正福音就是信靠耶稣基督——“当信主耶稣，你和你一家都必得救。” 无论是谁，在主耶稣已经完成的救恩上附加任何的条件，都是对救恩的亵渎！

boldness

Seventh-day Adventist Church Profile (安息日会） Timothy Oliver Organization Structure: Headquarters in Washington, D.C. Organized as representative democracy. Lower echelons elect representatives to higher units; determination and administration of policy, enforcement of doctrinal orthodoxy, imposed from top down. President, and Executive Committee of General Conference are standing chief administrative offices. Lower administrative units are the General Conference, Divisions (over continents), Union Conferences, local Conferences, and congregations. Several small Universities and Colleges and numerous well respected hospitals are maintained worldwide. Unique Terms: “Investigative Judgement,” “Spirit of Prophecy,” “Coming into the Truth” (believing and living the full SDA message and lifestyle), “Remnant Church.” History The world was predicted to end in 1844 with the Second Coming of Christ, by William Miller, a New England Baptist itinerant preacher. Miller's followers condemned all the churches of the day as apostate and “Babylon,” and warned Christians to come out of them. A great many did, and the “adventist” movement was born and grew rapidly (Melton, J. Gordon, Encyclopedia of American Religions, Vol. 2, pp. 21–22). Christ did not appear in 1844. After this “Great Disappointment,” one “little flock” still insisted the date of their original predictions had been correct. They decided the event marked by 1844 was not the Second Coming, but the entrance of Christ into the Holy of Holies in the Heavenly Sanctuary. There, they said, He began the “Investigative Judgement.” This doctrine was received and endorsed by Ellen G. White (Ibid., p. 680). From 1844 to 1851 the group taught the “shut door” doctrine, based on Jesus’ parable of the ten virgins. Anyone who had not accepted the Adventist message by the time Jesus entered the Holy of Holies was to be shut out permanently, as were the five foolish virgins. Cut off from the Bridegroom, they could not join the Adventists or have any hope of eternal life. Ellen White not only approved and taught this doctrine, but her first vision experience was largely responsible for its being received by the Adventist group (Brinsmead, Robert, D., Judged by the Gospel: A Review of Adventism, pp. 130–33). By 1846 the group had adopted the Seventh-day Baptists’ view that the Saturday Sabbath must be observed by Christians. A highly elevated form of this doctrine, together with the doctrine of the Investigative Judgment, became the hallmarks of Seventh-day Adventism. In 1850 James and Ellen White began publishing a magazine, The Review & Herald, to disseminate adventist and sabbatarian doctrines. This helped many of the remaining “Millerites” to coalesce into a distinctive body which adopted the name of Seventh-day Adventist Church in 1860, and formally incorporated in 1863, with approximately 3,500 members in 125 congregations (Encyclopedia of American Religion, Vol. 2, p. 681). Ellen White never held official title as the head of the church, but was one of its founders and acknowledged spiritual leader. She rather disingenuously declined to claim the title of “prophet,” calling herself a “messenger” instead (Damsteegt, P.G., et. al., Seventh-day Adventists Believe. . ., p. 224). But she claimed to have the “spirit of prophecy,” and that her messages were direct from God for the guidance and instruction of the church. With her knowledge and consent others called her a prophet, and even “the Spirit of Prophecy” (Barnett, Maurice, Ellen G. White & Inspiration, pp. 5–17). Having only a third grade education, Ellen White said for years she was unable to read, bolstering the claim that her beautiful prose was inspired by God. However, it has been discovered that she not only read, but plagiarized other Christian authors throughout virtually all her writings. The sad facts of this matter have been thoroughly and indisputably established in several books. (e.g., see; Rea, Walter, The White Lie; and Judged by the Gospel, pp. 361–83). Ellen White died in 1915 at age eighty-eight. Historically, evangelicals have had difficulty defining and categorizing SDA. Much SDA doctrine is biblically orthodox. Within its ranks are many true Christians, some even in positions of prominence. At various points in its history, most notably in the 1888 General Conference, the SDA church has been shaken by the biblical gospel. In the 1970s this became quite intense (Se: Paxton, Geoffrey, J., The Shaking of Adventism). Unfortunately, it produced a polarization. The church administrators generally became more entrenched in the unorthodox positions of traditional SDA, while some pastors and even whole congregations left or were asked to leave the SDA church (“From Controversy to Crisis,” CRI Journal, Vol. 11, No. 1, pp. 9–14). In official publications the SDA church continues to defend Ellen White legends, and maintain there was no difference in the degree of inspiration she received from that received by Bible writers (Review & Herald, 4 October 1928, p. 11; “Source of Final Appeal,” Adventist Review, 3 June 1971, pp. 4–6; G. A. Irwin, Mark of the Beast, p. 1; “The Inspiration and Authority of the Ellen G. White Writings,” Adventist Review, 15 July 1982, p. 3; Ministry, October 1981, p. 8; see also, Judged by the Gospel, pp. 125–30). In their June, 2000, General Conference they voted to more aggressively affirm and support the “Spirit of Prophecy through the ministry of Ellen White”(Adventist Today, [online: July 2000] ). They also teach a number of other doctrines clearly irreconcilable with the biblical gospel (see “Doctrine,” below). So long as these things continue, evangelicals must persist in questioning the status of the SDA church organization in Christianity, and much more, her claim to be God’s only true, end-time “Remnant Church.” Doctrine SDA teachings most clearly contrary to the gospel and unorthodox in nature are its insistence on water baptism as an essential prerequisite to salvation, its teaching about the end time significance of sabbath observance to identification of true believers, and its doctrine of the Investigative Judgement. Baptism: “…Christ made it clear that He required baptism of those who wished to become part of his church, His spiritual kingdom.” “In baptism believers enter into the passion experience of our Lord.” “…[B]aptism also marks [a] person’s entrance into Christ’s spiritual kingdom.…it unites the new believer to Christ.… Through baptism the Lord adds the new disciples to the body of believers — His body, the church.… Then they are members of God’s family” (SDA’s Believe…, pp. 182, 184, 187). The Sabbath: “…[T]he divine institution of the Sabbath is to be restored… The delivering of this message will precipitate a conflict that will involve the whole world. The central issue will be obedience to God's law and the observance of the Sabbath.…Those who reject it will eventually receive the mark of the beast” (Ibid., pp. 262–63). In one of her most revered works, Ellen White wrote that Sabbath observance would be the “line of distinction” in the “final test” that will separate God’s end-time people who “receive the seal of God” and are saved, from those who “receive the mark of the beast” (The Great Controversy Between Christ and Satan, p. 605). Describing a supposed vision direct from God, Ellen White wrote, “I saw that the Holy Sabbath is, and will be, the separating wall between the true Israel of God and unbelievers” (Early Writings, p. 33; emphasis added). She also wrote of some Adventists failing to understand that “Sabbath… observance was of sufficient importance to draw a line between the people of God and unbelievers” (Ibid., p. 85). The Investigative Judgement: “In 1844…[Christ] entered the second and last phase of His atoning ministry. It is a work of investigative judgement which is part of the ultimate disposition of all sin… It also makes manifest who among the living are abiding in Christ, keeping the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus, and in Him, therefore, are ready for translation into His everlasting kingdom. This judgement vindicates the justice of God in saving those who believe in Jesus. It declares that those who have remained loyal to God shall receive the kingdom” (SDA’s Believe…, p. 312; emphasis added). 待续

boldness

接上贴 “…[O]ur High Priest enters the holy of holies [in 1844]…to perform the work of investigative judgement and to make an atonement for all who are shown to be entitled to its benefits… Every man’s work passes in review before God and is registered for faithfulness or unfaithfulness… The law of God is the standard by which the characters and the lives of men will be tested in the judgement… As the books of record are opened in the judgement, the lives of all those who have believed on Jesus come in review before God… Names are accepted, names rejected… as they have become partakers of the righteousness of Christ, and their characters are found to be in harmony with the law of God, their sins will be blotted out, and they themselves will be accounted worthy of eternal life… Jesus does not excuse their sins, but shows their penitence and faith, and, claiming for them forgiveness, He lifts His wounded hands before the Father… Sins that have not been repented of and forsaken will not be pardoned and blotted out of the books of record, but will stand to witness against the sinner… [Christ] had kept His Father’s commandments, and there was no sin in Him… this is the condition in which those must be found who shall stand in the time of trouble” (Great Controversy, pp. 480, 482–84, 486, 623). According to Ellen White one must believe this doctrine to be saved. “Those who would share the benefits of the Savior’s mediation should permit nothing to interfere with their duty to perfect holiness in the fear of God… The subject of the sanctuary and the investigative judgement should be clearly understood by the people of God. All need a knowledge for themselves of the position [in the Holy of Holies] and work [investigative judgement] of their great High Priest. Otherwise it will be impossible for them to exercise the faith which is essential at this time or to occupy the position which God designs for them to fill. Every individual has a soul to save or to lose. Each has a case pending at the bar of God… All who have received the light on these subjects are to bear testimony of the great truths which God has committed to them. The sanctuary in heaven is the very center of Christ’s work in behalf of men… It is of the utmost importance that all should thoroughly investigate these subjects… The intercession of Christ in man’s behalf in the sanctuary above is as essential to the plan of salvation as was His death upon a cross. By His death He began that work which after his resurrection He ascended to complete in Heaven” (Ibid., pp. 488–89; emphasis added). Other distinctive SDA teachings include vegetarianism and other “health” issues; the doctrine of “soul sleep,” a misnomer for the belief that between death and resurrection one is essentially non-existent except in the memory of God; the annihilation of the wicked (as opposed to conscious torment for eternity). Biblical Response Baptism: Rom. 3:21–26, 28; 4:4–6, 23–24; 5:1; Gal. 2:16; 3:26; 5:1–6; Eph. 2:4–10; Col. 1:13–14; 2:13–14. These passages make it clear that salvation is entirely by God’s grace alone, apart from any works, and laid hold of by faith alone. Baptism is mentioned in close proximity to some of these passages, but the New Testament uses the word baptism in various ways. Clearly, the “one baptism” (Eph. 4:4–5) that is essential is the baptism of the Spirit. If a passage makes baptism essential to salvation it can only refer to the baptism of the Spirit, or it would conflict with other Scriptures which plainly teach salvation is apart from any human work. The Sabbath: The quoted statements above, particularly Ellen White’s, are crystal clear. Sabbath observance, not trust in Christ alone for complete forgiveness of sins and eternal life, is to be the dividing line between the saved and the lost in the end time. This is certainly antithetical to the gospel defined by the passages above. See also, Rom. 14:5–6; Col. 2:16–17. The Old Testament Sabbath was never anything more than a shadow of the substance. The reality of the New Testament Sabbath rest of God, which Paul and the writer of Hebrews make clear, is Christ Himself, and the rest one experiences from one’s own works when one enters into Christ (Heb. 4:1–10). The Investigative Judgement: the whole concept of the investigative judgement is antithetical to the Gospel. Jesus did not wait until 1844 to enter the Holy of Holies in heaven (Heb. 1:3; 6:19–20; 8:1; 9:6–12, 24; 12:2). Neither is he still making an atonement in heaven (Heb. 9:25–26; 10:11–14). The investigative judgement proposes to “vindicate the justice of God in saving those who believe in Jesus,” by showing they were “loyal,” “penitent,” and “faithful” commandment keepers. This is an outrage. God’s justice in saving sinners is vindicated by Christ’s death on the cross, period (Rom. 3:24–26). Even when speaking of being saved by the righteousness of Christ, Adventist writers refer to imparted righteousness, seldom to the biblical concept of imputed righteousness. Calling it “Christ’s righteousness,” while insisting on the believer’s perfection of character as a prerequisite to salvation, is at worst a thinly veiled works salvation, or at best an attempt to mix grace and works, something the Bible says is impossible to do (Rom. 11:6). Mrs. Whites words are crystal clear—one will not be forgiven until all sins are eradicated from one’s life and one’s character is perfected. Precisely the same heresy is found (besides many others) in Mormonism. It is not the salvation by grace alone through faith alone offered in the Bible. The error is compounded by the teaching that this latter day 1844 event must be believed in to exercise the proper faith necessary to be saved. When Jesus said on the cross, “It is finished,” i.e. completed, paid in full, it cannot be that there is yet another salvation event more than 1800 years later, just as essential to salvation as Christ’s death on the cross, in which one must believe in order to be saved. This is clearly “another gospel” (Gal. 1:6–9). Other doctrines: Some of the SDA health message may actually be helpful, and it does not conflict with the gospel except when, as is often the case, spiritual stigma is attached to non-observance of its asceticism (Gal. 2:11-16). The soul-sleep doctrine conflicts with the gospel because, closely examined and fully understood, it actually constitutes a denial of the resurrection (though it is doubtful any SDA understands it to be so). Notwithstanding a smattering of “proof-texts,” the annihilation doctrine is definitely aberrant from the teaching of the Bible. It leaves the sinner facing no eternal consequences for his sin; angst over annihilation will not survive annihilation. Indeed, many people today think annihilation preferable to even this life. They live on only because they cannot shake the conviction that there is “hell to pay.” God has set eternity in their hearts (Eccl. 3:11). Resources Ratzlaff, Dale, The Sabbath in Crisis. Excellent book by a former SDA pastor, covers virtually every aspect of the Sabbath question. 345 pages, include. scripture index, $15. Ratzlaff, Dale, The Cultic Doctrine of Seveth-day Adventists. Probaly the best popular, overall, treatment of Seventh-day Adventism, and especially the 1844/Investigative Judgment/Sanctuary doctrine, ever penned. Leaves no doubt. 384 pages, four appendices, incl. bibliography, $15. Tardo, Dr. Russell, K., Sunday Facts and Sabbath. Presents “25 Reasons Why the Christian Church Worships on Sunday.” 144 pages, $5. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

乌鸦

安息日的弟兄不必拿段琦的所谓旁观者立场的文章来作说明，因为她只是一个宗教研究员，跟各教派接触的时间又少，她的文章根本不能代表什么。你如果去看她写的介绍其他教派的文章，可能会发现内容更加动听呢！ 安息日会里的学者经常会引用耶稣与青年财主的对话来说明进天国需要守十诫，可是耶稣所列出的诫命里多了一条“爱人如己”，这一条也被称为诫命，可见耶稣所说的诫命并不仅仅指十诫，因为他总结的最大的两条诫命都不是写在十诫里的。