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请问黑暗的中世纪给我们提供了那些参考价值?

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发表于 2010-4-6 01:19 | 显示全部楼层
以下是引用阿莎在2010-4-6 1:11:00的发言:

科学和信仰上帝确实不矛盾。这是我的认识。但我并非一个信仰科学的人,我信仰上帝,但认为科学也仅仅是上帝手里的工具,工具怎么会和神灵矛盾哪?请你好好理解。


完全,双手支持!


这个世界,科学确实解释了一部分,但科学不能完全解释世界。
那你也不能排除科学吧?比如:基因,宇宙飞船,电脑,不都是科学发明吗?


其实我是一个科学家。
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发表于 2010-4-6 01:24 | 显示全部楼层
以下是引用阿莎在2010-4-6 1:02:00的发言:

弟兄,你标1、2、3、4,都是指一个意思啦。我想和你主要讨论的是:爱因斯坦到底信不信上帝?就这一点来说,我觉得找不到证据。你有证据吗?我要证据,不是什么你说,我说,他说。呵呵。

 

呵呵,我看了你写的,只想笑,请谅解我忍不住不笑。

 

你据理力争的(请谅解,我认为你是这样的),是有关爱因斯坦的言论吧?"没有科学的宗教是盲目的。"这一句不是真理啦,而是一句名言。既然不是真理,那就有瑕疵和漏洞,所以也会有争议。就语感来说,我认为盲目不是指“瞎子”,盲目的提醒是让人更加慎重。

 

弟兄,谈论问题就事论事,不要延伸,好吗?比如:我就想知道爱因斯坦到底信不信上帝,其他的都不讨论,也不关心啊。

 

OVER

爱因斯坦不说中文。灵命非常小的在下说的是
都说blind了, 宗教没科学眼睛都瞎了(=失去理解力,判断力)

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind.
Albert Einstein, "Science, Philosophy and Religion: a Symposium", 1941

[此贴子已经被作者于2010-4-6 1:26:15编辑过]
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发表于 2010-4-6 01:38 | 显示全部楼层
 非要我贴出来吗?自己看多好。爱因斯坦到底信不信上帝?如果有人继续说,阿,爱因斯坦临终信上帝了。我无语,呵呵。

Article by Albert Einstein appeared in Science, Philosophy and Religion, A Symposium, published by the Conference on Science, Philosophy and Religion in Their Relation to the Democratic Way of Life, Inc., New York, 1941.
爱因斯坦的署名文章

It would not be difficult to come to an agreement as to what we understand by science. Science is the century-old endeavor to bring together by means of systematic thought the perceptible phenomena of this world into as thoroughgoing an association as possible. To put it boldly, it is the attempt at the posterior reconstruction of existence by the process of conceptualization. But when asking myself what religion is I cannot think of the answer so easily. And even after finding an answer which may satisfy me at this particular moment, I still remain convinced that I can never under any circumstances bring together, even to a slight extent, the thoughts of all those who have given this question serious consideration.(大意:宗教是什么我不明白。就算现在我找到了什么满意的答案,我仍然确信,在任何情况下,我也永远不会理解,哪怕是一点点,那些把这个问题当会事的人的思想)。

At first, then, instead of asking what religion is I should prefer to ask what characterizes the aspirations of a person who gives me the impression of being religious: a person who is religiously enlightened appears to me to be one who has, to the best of his ability, liberated himself from the fetters of his selfish desires and is preoccupied with thoughts, feelings, and aspirations to which he clings because of their superpersonalvalue. It seems to me that what is important is the force of this superpersonal content and the depth of the conviction concerning its overpowering meaningfulness, regardless of whether any attempt is made to unite this content with a divine Being, for otherwise it would not be possible to count Buddha and Spinoza as religious personalities. Accordingly, a religious person is devout in the sense that he has no doubt of the significance and loftiness of those superpersonal objects and goals which neither require nor are capable of rational foundation. They exist with the same necessity and matter-of-factness as he himself. In this sense religion is the age-old endeavor of mankind to become clearly and completely conscious of these values and goals and constantly to strengthen and extend their effect. If one conceives of religion and science according to these definitions then a conflict between them appears impossible. For science can only ascertain what is, but not what should be, and outside of its domain value judgments of all kinds remain necessary. Religion, on the other hand, deals only with evaluations of human thought and action: it cannot justifiably speak of facts and relationships between facts. According to this interpretation the well-known conflicts between religion and science in the past must all be ascribed to a misapprehension of the situation which has been described.

For example, a conflict arises when a religious community insists on the absolute truthfulness of all statements recorded in the Bible. This means an intervention on the part of religion into the sphere of science; this is where the struggle of the Church against the doctrines of Galileo and Darwin belongs. On the other hand, representatives of science have often made an attempt to arrive at fundamental judgments with respect to values and ends on the basis of scientific method, and in this way have set themselves in opposition to religion. These conflicts have all sprung from fatal errors.(大意:坚持圣经无误论是宗教团体干涉科学的原因,因此教会才会反对伽利略和达尔文)

Now, even though the realms of religion and science in themselves are clearly marked off from each other, nevertheless there exist between the two strong reciprocal relationships and dependencies. Though religion may be that which determines the goal, it has, nevertheless, learned from science, in the broadest sense, what means will contribute to the attainment of the goals it has set up. But science can only be created by those who are thoroughly imbued with the aspiration toward truth and understanding. This source of feeling, however, springs from the sphere of religion. To this there also belongs the faith in the possibility that the regulations valid for the world of existence are rational, that is, comprehensible to reason. I cannot conceive of a genuine scientist without that profound faith. The situation may be expressed by an image: science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind. 没有宗教的科学是跛脚的,没有科学的宗教是盲目的,这就是那句名言)

Though I have asserted above that in truth a legitimate conflict between religion and science cannot exist, I must nevertheless qualify this assertion once again on an essential point, with reference to the actual content of historical religions. This qualification has to do with the concept of God. During the youthful period of mankind's spiritual evolution human fantasy created gods in man's own image, who, by the operations of their will were supposed to determine, or at any rate to influence, the phenomenal world. Man sought to alter the disposition of these gods in his own favor by means of magic and prayer. The idea of God in the religions taught at present is a sublimation of that old concept of the gods. Its anthropomorphic character is shown, for instance, by the fact that men appeal to the Divine Being in prayers and plead for the fulfillment of their wishes.大意:人类早期精神进化的想象按人的样式创造了神)

Nobody, certainly, will deny that the idea of the existence of an omnipotent, just, and omnibeneficent personal God is able to accord man solace, help, and guidance; also, by virtue of its simplicity it is accessible to the most undeveloped mind. But, on the other hand, there are decisive weaknesses attached to this idea in itself, which have been painfully felt since the beginning of history. That is, if this being is omnipotent, then every occurrence, including every human action, every human thought, and every human feeling and aspiration is also His work; how is it possible to think of holding men responsible for their deeds and thoughts before such an almighty Being? In giving out punishment and rewards He would to a certain extent be passing judgment on Himself. How can this be combined with the goodness and righteousness ascribed to Him?(大意:没有人能证明神不存在,但是有神的观点自己很脆弱. 如果人的行为是神的工作,那么神的惩罚或者奖励不可避免地会给自己带来审判。祂怎样把这审判和自己的公义集于一身呢?)

The main source of the present-day conflicts between the spheres of religion and of science lies in this concept of a personal God. It is the aim of science to establish general rules which determine the reciprocal connection of objects and events in time and space. For these rules, or laws of nature, absolutely general validity is required--not proven. It is mainly a program, and faith in the possibility of its accomplishment in principle is only founded on partial successes. But hardly anyone could be found who would deny these partial successes and ascribe them to human self-deception. The fact that on the basis of such laws we are able to predict the temporal behavior of phenomena in certain domains with great precision and certainty is deeply embedded in the consciousness of the modern man, even though he may have grasped very little of the contents of those laws. He need only consider that planetary courses within the solar system may be calculated in advance with great exactitude on the basis of a limited number of simple laws. In a similar way, though not with the same precision, it is possible to calculate in advance the mode of operation of an electric motor, a transmission system, or of a wireless apparatus, even when dealing with a novel development.

To be sure, when the number of factors coming into play in a phenomenological complex is too large, scientific method in most cases fails us. One need only think of the weather, in which case prediction even for a few days ahead is impossible. Nevertheless no one doubts that we are confronted with a causal connection whose causal components are in the main known to us. Occurrences in this domain are beyond the reach of exact prediction because of the variety of factors in operation, not because of any lack of order in nature.

We have penetrated far less deeply into the regularities obtaining within the realm of living things, but deeply enough nevertheless to sense at least the rule of fixed necessity. One need only think of the systematic order in heredity, and in the effect of poisons, as for instance alcohol, on the behavior of organic beings. What is still lacking here is a grasp of connections of profound generality, but not a knowledge of order in itself.

The more a man is imbued with the ordered regularity of all events the firmer becomes his conviction that there is no room left by the side of this ordered regularity for causes of a different nature. For him neither the rule of human nor the rule of divine will exists as an independent cause of natural events. To be sure, the doctrine of a personal God interfering with natural events could never be refuted, in the real sense, by science, for this doctrine can always take refuge in those domains in which scientific knowledge has not yet been able to set foot.

But I am persuaded that such behavior on the part of the representatives of religion would not only be unworthy but also fatal. For a doctrine which is able to maintain itself not in clear light but only in the dark, will of necessity lose its effect on mankind, with incalculable harm to human progress. In their struggle for the ethical good, teachers of religion must have the stature to give up the doctrine of a personal God, that is, give up that source of fear and hope which in the past placed such vast power in the hands of priests. In their labors they will have to avail themselves of those forces which are capable of cultivating the Good, the True, and the Beautiful in humanity itself. This is, to be sure, a more difficult but an incomparably more worthy task. (This thought is convincingly presented in Herbert Samuel's book, Belief and Action.) After religious teachers accomplish the refining process indicated they will surely recognize with joy that true religion has been ennobled and made more profound by scientific knowledge.(大意:我确信宗教这么做(按:信有位格的神)不值得,是致命的。这样的教义对人类危害极大,最终会失去对人类的影响)

If it is one of the goals of religion to liberate mankind as far as possible from the bondage of egocentric cravings, desires, and fears, scientific reasoning can aid religion in yet another sense. Although it is true that it is the goal of science to discover rules which permit the association and foretelling of facts, this is not its only aim. It also seeks to reduce the connections discovered to the smallest possible number of mutually independent conceptual elements. It is in this striving after the rational unification of the manifold that it encounters its greatest successes, even though it is precisely this attempt which causes it to run the greatest risk of falling a prey to illusions. But whoever has undergone the intense experience of successful advances made in this domain is moved by profound reverence for the rationality made manifest in existence. By way of the understanding he achieves a far-reaching emancipation from the shackles of personal hopes and desires, and thereby attains that humble attitude of mind toward the grandeur of reason incarnate in existence, and which, in its profoundest depths, is inaccessible to man. This attitude, however, appears to me to be religious, in the highest sense of the word. And so it seems to me that science not only purifies the religious impulse of the dross of its anthropomorphism but also contributes to a religious spiritualization of our understanding of life.

The further the spiritual evolution of mankind advances, the more certain it seems to me that the path to genuine religiosity does not lie through the fear of life, and the fear of death, and blind faith, but through striving after rational knowledge. In this sense I believe that the priest must become a teacher if he wishes to do justice to his lofty educational mission.

[此贴子已经被作者于2010-4-7 5:13:19编辑过]
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发表于 2010-4-6 02:30 | 显示全部楼层
楼偏了。请开新帖讨论爱因斯坦的问题好不好?
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发表于 2010-4-6 02:31 | 显示全部楼层
以下是引用latebird在2010-4-6 1:38:00的发言:
 非要我贴出来吗?自己看多好。爱因斯坦到底信不信上帝?如果有人继续说,阿,爱因斯坦临终信上帝了。我无语,呵呵。

Article by Albert Einstein appeared in Science, Philosophy and Religion, A Symposium, published by the Conference on Science, Philosophy and Religion in Their Relation to the Democratic Way of Life, Inc., New York, 1941.
[此贴子已经被作者于2010-4-6 2:28:49编辑过]

我怎么知道你引用的是爱因斯坦的原话?
我要的是爱因斯坦不信上帝的证据!
你乱七八糟说的都是什么呀!忍不住又笑了!

BOLDNESS:
楼偏了。请开新帖讨论爱因斯坦的问题好不好?


对不起,就此打住。

[此贴子已经被作者于2010-4-6 2:33:06编辑过]
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发表于 2010-4-6 13:29 | 显示全部楼层
以下是引用latebird在2010-4-6 1:19:00的发言:

完全,双手支持!


这个世界,科学确实解释了一部分,但科学不能完全解释世界。
那你也不能排除科学吧?比如:基因,宇宙飞船,电脑,不都是科学发明吗?


其实我是一个科学家。

你是一个科学家?怎么确信哪?

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 楼主| 发表于 2010-4-8 17:41 | 显示全部楼层

我其实在想:如果将来新天新地了,科学还有用么?还继续发展么?

 

 

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发表于 2010-4-9 04:55 | 显示全部楼层
看来楼主需要另开新贴讨论这个问题了。呵呵。
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 楼主| 发表于 2010-4-9 23:45 | 显示全部楼层
以下是引用boldness在2010-4-6 2:30:00的发言:
楼偏了。请开新帖讨论爱因斯坦的问题好不好?

1.请问黑暗的中世纪给我们提供了那些参考价值?

黑暗的中世纪是如何造成的?知道了这个答案就好办了。

2.请问为什么教会发展史总充满了迷信?

知道了第一个问题的答案,就知道这个问题的答案了。


3.我们如何面对信仰与科学的不可通越性?

信仰与科学属于不同的范畴,不过信仰与科学有相交的部分,但是信仰是高于科学的,因为信仰是高于理性的,而科学是建立在理性至上的。


4.我现在应该怎么做才能避免重蹈覆辙?

同样,知道了第一个问题的答案,就知道如何避免重蹈覆辙。

 

 

版主老兄:你就直了吧。我笨哎.....不知道哎........

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