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[编译]爱因斯坦不信上帝

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发表于 2010-4-7 05:22 | 显示全部楼层 |阅读模式
应要求重开新贴讨论爱因斯坦信不信上帝,此为爱因斯坦自己署名文章。
呵呵,初步判断许多人连下面文章中文翻译的部分都没读就Over了。

我发此帖的目的是说明爱因斯坦是一个不信有位格的神的人。
他的话也不适合引用来说明我们的宗教信仰和科学不冲突。

他那句“没有宗教的科学是跛脚的,没有科学的宗教是盲目的”
名言的原意可不是说我们的信仰好。
"没有科学的宗教是盲目的(blind)", 宗教没科学眼睛都瞎了(=失去理解力,判断力)
主耶稣时代就没有现在意义上的科学,可是使徒们的信仰可不能说是盲目的。


Article by Albert Einstein appeared in Science, Philosophy and Religion, A Symposium, published by the Conference on Science, Philosophy and Religion in Their Relation to the Democratic Way of Life, Inc., New York, 1941.

爱因斯坦的署名文章

It would not be difficult to come to an agreement as to what we understand by science. Science is the century-old endeavor to bring together by means of systematic thought the perceptible phenomena of this world into as thoroughgoing an association as possible. To put it boldly, it is the attempt at the posterior reconstruction of existence by the process of conceptualization. But when asking myself what religion is I cannot think of the answer so easily. And even after finding an answer which may satisfy me at this particular moment, I still remain convinced that I can never under any circumstances bring together, even to a slight extent, the thoughts of all those who have given this question serious consideration.(大意:宗教是什么我不明白。就算现在我找到了什么满意的答案,我仍然确信,在任何情况下,我也永远不会理解,哪怕是一点点,那些把这个问题当回事的人的思想)。

At first, then, instead of asking what religion is I should prefer to ask what characterizes the aspirations of a person who gives me the impression of being religious: a person who is religiously enlightened appears to me to be one who has, to the best of his ability, liberated himself from the fetters of his selfish desires and is preoccupied with thoughts, feelings, and aspirations to which he clings because of their superpersonalvalue. It seems to me that what is important is the force of this superpersonal content and the depth of the conviction concerning its overpowering meaningfulness, regardless of whether any attempt is made to unite this content with a divine Being, for otherwise it would not be possible to count Buddha and Spinoza as religious personalities. Accordingly, a religious person is devout in the sense that he has no doubt of the significance and loftiness of those superpersonal objects and goals which neither require nor are capable of rational foundation. They exist with the same necessity and matter-of-factness as he himself. In this sense religion is the age-old endeavor of mankind to become clearly and completely conscious of these values and goals and constantly to strengthen and extend their effect. If one conceives of religion and science according to these definitions then a conflict between them appears impossible. For science can only ascertain what is, but not what should be, and outside of its domain value judgments of all kinds remain necessary. Religion, on the other hand, deals only with evaluations of human thought and action: it cannot justifiably speak of facts and relationships between facts. According to this interpretation the well-known conflicts between religion and science in the past must all be ascribed to a misapprehension of the situation which has been described.

For example, a conflict arises when a religious community insists on the absolute truthfulness of all statements recorded in the Bible. This means an intervention on the part of religion into the sphere of science; this is where the struggle of the Church against the doctrines of Galileo and Darwin belongs. On the other hand, representatives of science have often made an attempt to arrive at fundamental judgments with respect to values and ends on the basis of scientific method, and in this way have set themselves in opposition to religion. These conflicts have all sprung from fatal errors.(大意:坚持圣经无误论是宗教团体干涉科学的原因,因此教会才会反对伽利略和达尔文)

Now, even though the realms of religion and science in themselves are clearly marked off from each other, nevertheless there exist between the two strong reciprocal relationships and dependencies. Though religion may be that which determines the goal, it has, nevertheless, learned from science, in the broadest sense, what means will contribute to the attainment of the goals it has set up. But science can only be created by those who are thoroughly imbued with the aspiration toward truth and understanding. This source of feeling, however, springs from the sphere of religion. To this there also belongs the faith in the possibility that the regulations valid for the world of existence are rational, that is, comprehensible to reason. I cannot conceive of a genuine scientist without that profound faith. The situation may be expressed by an image: science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind. 没有宗教的科学是跛脚的,没有科学的宗教是盲目的,这就是那句名言)

Though I have asserted above that in truth a legitimate conflict between religion and science cannot exist, I must nevertheless qualify this assertion once again on an essential point, with reference to the actual content of historical religions. This qualification has to do with the concept of God. During the youthful period of mankind's spiritual evolution human fantasy created gods in man's own image, who, by the operations of their will were supposed to determine, or at any rate to influence, the phenomenal world. Man sought to alter the disposition of these gods in his own favor by means of magic and prayer. The idea of God in the religions taught at present is a sublimation of that old concept of the gods. Its anthropomorphic character is shown, for instance, by the fact that men appeal to the Divine Being in prayers and plead for the fulfillment of their wishes.大意:人类在早期精神进化时,通过人类的想象按人的样式创造了神)

Nobody, certainly, will deny that the idea of the existence of an omnipotent, just, and omnibeneficent personal God is able to accord man solace, help, and guidance; also, by virtue of its simplicity it is accessible to the most undeveloped mind. But, on the other hand, there are decisive weaknesses attached to this idea in itself, which have been painfully felt since the beginning of history. That is, if this being is omnipotent, then every occurrence, including every human action, every human thought, and every human feeling and aspiration is also His work; how is it possible to think of holding men responsible for their deeds and thoughts before such an almighty Being? In giving out punishment and rewards He would to a certain extent be passing judgment on Himself. How can this be combined with the goodness and righteousness ascribed to Him?(大意:没有人能证明神不存在,但是有神的观点自己很脆弱. 如果人的行为是神的工作,那么神的惩罚或者奖励不可避免地会给自己带来审判。祂怎样把这审判和自己的公义集于一身呢?)

The main source of the present-day conflicts between the spheres of religion and of science lies in this concept of a personal God. It is the aim of science to establish general rules which determine the reciprocal connection of objects and events in time and space. For these rules, or laws of nature, absolutely general validity is required--not proven. It is mainly a program, and faith in the possibility of its accomplishment in principle is only founded on partial successes. But hardly anyone could be found who would deny these partial successes and ascribe them to human self-deception. The fact that on the basis of such laws we are able to predict the temporal behavior of phenomena in certain domains with great precision and certainty is deeply embedded in the consciousness of the modern man, even though he may have grasped very little of the contents of those laws. He need only consider that planetary courses within the solar system may be calculated in advance with great exactitude on the basis of a limited number of simple laws. In a similar way, though not with the same precision, it is possible to calculate in advance the mode of operation of an electric motor, a transmission system, or of a wireless apparatus, even when dealing with a novel development.

To be sure, when the number of factors coming into play in a phenomenological complex is too large, scientific method in most cases fails us. One need only think of the weather, in which case prediction even for a few days ahead is impossible. Nevertheless no one doubts that we are confronted with a causal connection whose causal components are in the main known to us. Occurrences in this domain are beyond the reach of exact prediction because of the variety of factors in operation, not because of any lack of order in nature.

We have penetrated far less deeply into the regularities obtaining within the realm of living things, but deeply enough nevertheless to sense at least the rule of fixed necessity. One need only think of the systematic order in heredity, and in the effect of poisons, as for instance alcohol, on the behavior of organic beings. What is still lacking here is a grasp of connections of profound generality, but not a knowledge of order in itself.

The more a man is imbued with the ordered regularity of all events the firmer becomes his conviction that there is no room left by the side of this ordered regularity for causes of a different nature. For him neither the rule of human nor the rule of divine will exists as an independent cause of natural events. To be sure, the doctrine of a personal God interfering with natural events could never be refuted, in the real sense, by science, for this doctrine can always take refuge in those domains in which scientific knowledge has not yet been able to set foot.

But I am persuaded that such behavior on the part of the representatives of religion would not only be unworthy but also fatal. For a doctrine which is able to maintain itself not in clear light but only in the dark, will of necessity lose its effect on mankind, with incalculable harm to human progress. In their struggle for the ethical good, teachers of religion must have the stature to give up the doctrine of a personal God, that is, give up that source of fear and hope which in the past placed such vast power in the hands of priests. In their labors they will have to avail themselves of those forces which are capable of cultivating the Good, the True, and the Beautiful in humanity itself. This is, to be sure, a more difficult but an incomparably more worthy task. (This thought is convincingly presented in Herbert Samuel's book, Belief and Action.) After religious teachers accomplish the refining process indicated they will surely recognize with joy that true religion has been ennobled and made more profound by scientific knowledge.大意:我确信宗教这么做(按:信有位格的神)不值得,是致命的。这样的教义对人类危害极大,最终会失去对人类的影响)

If it is one of the goals of religion to liberate mankind as far as possible from the bondage of egocentric cravings, desires, and fears, scientific reasoning can aid religion in yet another sense. Although it is true that it is the goal of science to discover rules which permit the association and foretelling of facts, this is not its only aim. It also seeks to reduce the connections discovered to the smallest possible number of mutually independent conceptual elements. It is in this striving after the rational unification of the manifold that it encounters its greatest successes, even though it is precisely this attempt which causes it to run the greatest risk of falling a prey to illusions. But whoever has undergone the intense experience of successful advances made in this domain is moved by profound reverence for the rationality made manifest in existence. By way of the understanding he achieves a far-reaching emancipation from the shackles of personal hopes and desires, and thereby attains that humble attitude of mind toward the grandeur of reason incarnate in existence, and which, in its profoundest depths, is inaccessible to man. This attitude, however, appears to me to be religious, in the highest sense of the word. And so it seems to me that science not only purifies the religious impulse of the dross of its anthropomorphism but also contributes to a religious spiritualization of our understanding of life.

The further the spiritual evolution of mankind advances, the more certain it seems to me that the path to genuine religiosity does not lie through the fear of life, and the fear of death, and blind faith, but through striving after rational knowledge. In this sense I believe that the priest must become a teacher if he wishes to do justice to his lofty educational mission.

[此贴子已经被作者于2010-4-7 7:35:32编辑过]
发表于 2010-4-7 05:33 | 显示全部楼层

上帝不掷骰子,也是爱因斯坦讲的。

呵呵,上帝偏偏喜欢呼召大家看不上的人。

奇怪吧!

 

 

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发表于 2010-4-7 09:57 | 显示全部楼层

爱因斯坦是举世公认的科学家,为人类科学的发展做出了巨大的贡献。他的信仰是怎么样的,对我们真正爱耶稣的人不会有丝毫的影响,我们爱耶稣是因为耶稣爱我们。

不过讨论爱因斯坦的信仰也并不是全没意义。每个人都有思考上帝的权利,虽然他的认知很有限。

神是奥秘的,连最聪明的科学家都无法测透,这充分说明人的智慧是多么的有限,呵呵。

另外也从侧面提醒我们,在神面前要更加谦卑,存敬畏、虔诚、诚实、正直、善良的心,上帝的眼目监察一切,他的心思人无法测透。

 

 

 

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 楼主| 发表于 2010-4-7 10:07 | 显示全部楼层
以下是引用恒久的爱在2010-4-7 9:57:00的发言:

爱因斯坦是举世公认的科学家,为人类科学的发展做出了巨大的贡献。他的信仰是怎么样的,对我们真正爱耶稣的人不会有丝毫的影响,我们爱耶稣是因为耶稣爱我们。

不过讨论爱因斯坦的信仰也并不是全没意义。每个人都有思考上帝的权利,虽然他的认知很有限。

神是奥秘的,连最聪明的科学家都无法测透,这充分说明人的智慧是多么的有限,呵呵。

另外也从侧面提醒我们,在神面前要更加谦卑,存敬畏、虔诚、诚实、正直、善良的心,上帝的眼目监察一切,他的心思人无法测透。

 

 

 

没错, 爱因斯坦是我非常推崇的科学家。
只是有些人误信爱因斯坦信上帝的谣言,用爱因斯坦说这个,那个的来带领人信主。不知这样归主的人日后知道了真相,会怎么想。所以要澄清。
我也知道,简单的一句
爱因斯坦老年(成名之后)时信仰发生了变化就OK了,我的帖子就白写了。呵呵。上帝拣选智者吧。
[此贴子已经被作者于2010-4-7 11:07:51编辑过]
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发表于 2010-4-7 10:16 | 显示全部楼层

呵呵,你笑死我了。什么有些人啊?你干脆就说我好了。

 

等我有空和你辩。先贴这个给你看:

 

     在爱因斯坦50岁生日后不久,他在一次非同寻常的采访中表达了他从未表露过的宗教观点。那是他接受乔治·西尔维斯特·维埃里克的专访。维埃里克问他:“你在多大程度上受到基督教的影响?”爱因斯坦回答:“在童年时候,我既受到《圣经》的教诲,也得到泰尔穆德的指导。我是犹太人,但是我沉醉在基督教的光明之中。”“你接受耶稣在历史上确实存在这一说法吗?”爱因斯坦回答:“毫无疑问!不能感觉到耶稣的确存在,就不能读懂《福音书》。他的人格在每个词上跳动。”

    “你相信上帝吗?”

    爱因斯坦回答:“我不是无神论者。我也不认为我可以称自己为泛神论者。中间的问题对于我们有限的思维来说太大了。我们的状况就像个小孩进入到一个巨大的图书馆中,里面的藏书有许多国家的文字。孩子知道是某些人写了那些书,但是不知道是怎么写的,也看不懂书上的语言。孩子模糊地怀疑书有一个神秘的排列顺序,但是不知道是什么。对我来说,就好像是一个最聪明的人类面对上帝一样。我们看到宇宙很好地组织、排列着,并且遵循某种法则,但我们只是很模糊地理解这些法则。”

    爱因斯坦试图把他关于信仰的这些想法清楚地表达出来。所以,1930年夏天,他在卡普思航海和反思期间,创作了他的信条《我相信的》(WhatIBelieve),概括了他想要为他的“宗教信仰”作出的解释:“我们可以经历的最美好的情感是神秘的。那是站在所有真正的艺术和科学摇篮里的最根本的情感。谁对这种情感陌生,谁就不能敬畏地去想,去全神贯注地站立,就像死亡了一样,如一支熄灭的蜡烛。要感觉我们经历的事情背后的东西,一些是我们的思维无法抓住的,里面的美和崇高只有通过间接的形式传达给我们,这就是信仰。从这个角度来讲,也只有从这个角度来讲,我是一个虔诚的宗教信仰者。”

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 楼主| 发表于 2010-4-7 10:49 | 显示全部楼层
以下是引用阿莎在2010-4-7 10:16:00的发言:

呵呵,你笑死我了。什么有些人啊?你干脆就说我好了。

 

等我有空和你辩。先贴这个给你看:

 

     在爱因斯坦50岁生日后不久,他在一次非同寻常的采访中表达了他从未表露过的宗教观点。那是他接受乔治·西尔维斯特·维埃里克的专访。维埃里克问他:“你在多大程度上受到基督教的影响?”爱因斯坦回答:“在童年时候,我既受到《圣经》的教诲,也得到泰尔穆德的指导。我是犹太人,但是我沉醉在基督教的光明之中。”“你接受耶稣在历史上确实存在这一说法吗?”爱因斯坦回答:“毫无疑问!不能感觉到耶稣的确存在,就不能读懂《福音书》。他的人格在每个词上跳动。”

    “你相信上帝吗?”

    爱因斯坦回答:“我不是无神论者。我也不认为我可以称自己为泛神论者。中间的问题对于我们有限的思维来说太大了。我们的状况就像个小孩进入到一个巨大的图书馆中,里面的藏书有许多国家的文字。孩子知道是某些人写了那些书,但是不知道是怎么写的,也看不懂书上的语言。孩子模糊地怀疑书有一个神秘的排列顺序,但是不知道是什么。对我来说,就好像是一个最聪明的人类面对上帝一样。我们看到宇宙很好地组织、排列着,并且遵循某种法则,但我们只是很模糊地理解这些法则。”

    爱因斯坦试图把他关于信仰的这些想法清楚地表达出来。所以,1930年夏天,他在卡普思航海和反思期间,创作了他的信条《我相信的》(WhatIBelieve),概括了他想要为他的“宗教信仰”作出的解释:“我们可以经历的最美好的情感是神秘的。那是站在所有真正的艺术和科学摇篮里的最根本的情感。谁对这种情感陌生,谁就不能敬畏地去想,去全神贯注地站立,就像死亡了一样,如一支熄灭的蜡烛。要感觉我们经历的事情背后的东西,一些是我们的思维无法抓住的,里面的美和崇高只有通过间接的形式传达给我们,这就是信仰。从这个角度来讲,也只有从这个角度来讲,我是一个虔诚的宗教信仰者。”

你继续笑死。我还是能忍住不笑你。我真的没说你,你代表不了有些人。

你不是要证据的那个人吗,怎么有了证据,都翻译给你的,又不看了?呵呵。

争论是给第三方看的。有耐心仔细看,接受正确观点的观众有福了。

你是不是为了面子,新找一个所谓的证据来找回场子呀?请发新贴。否则请就主贴内容发表议论。谢谢!

确实,我也没有时间和你争什么。
你的帖子我暂时没有时间去看真实性和原文,不过姑且假定你的帖子完全真实可靠,那么你的帖子是支持我的言论的。那就是
我们可以经历的最美好的情感是神秘的。那是站在所有真正的艺术和科学摇篮里的最根本的情感。谁对这种情感陌生,谁就不能敬畏地去想,去全神贯注地站立,就像死亡了一样,如一支熄灭的蜡烛。要感觉我们经历的事情背后的东西,一些是我们的思维无法抓住的,里面的美和崇高只有通过间接的形式传达给我们,这就是信仰。从这个角度来讲,也只有从这个角度来讲,我是一个虔诚的宗教信仰者”:这说明爱因斯坦是一个不信有位格的神的人,更不是基督教的上帝。这是和我主贴里他真实的原话相一致的。
[此贴子已经被作者于2010-4-7 11:03:03编辑过]
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发表于 2010-4-7 12:11 | 显示全部楼层

latebird 确实是一位对任何事情,都喜欢弄的一清二楚、不盲目信从的人,这点很好。

 

只是,爱因斯坦信不信上帝和我们能不能得救真的无关紧要,这样的事情,只有上帝最清楚,爱因斯坦本人清楚,所以,我们就不要在这样一个永远没有标准答案的问题上花太多时间讨论了。随各人自己的接受吧。

 

换句话来说,一个人能不能信,决不是说我们传福音的时候说了一句爱因斯坦也是基督徒,那个人 就能接受的。传过福音的人应该都清楚,不愿意相信的,你列出再多看似有力量的证据来证明神,那个人还是不会去相信。而愿意相信的人,你可能只是那么稍微一说,他就相信了。

 

归根结底,一个人能不能信,不是出于我们列出的证据之多,不是我们的口才之好,只是神在工作,圣灵在那个人心里动工了。

[此贴子已经被作者于2010-4-7 12:12:33编辑过]
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发表于 2010-4-7 12:33 | 显示全部楼层

又多学习了一些知识[em130]

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 楼主| 发表于 2010-4-7 12:37 | 显示全部楼层
以下是引用跟随主的脚步在2010-4-7 12:11:00的发言:

latebird 确实是一位对任何事情,都喜欢弄的一清二楚、不盲目信从的人,这点很好。

 

只是,爱因斯坦信不信上帝和我们能不能得救真的无关紧要,这样的事情,只有上帝最清楚,爱因斯坦本人清楚,所以,我们就不要在这样一个永远没有标准答案的问题上花太多时间讨论了。随各人自己的接受吧。

 

换句话来说,一个人能不能信,决不是说我们传福音的时候说了一句爱因斯坦也是基督徒,那个人 就能接受的。传过福音的人应该都清楚,不愿意相信的,你列出再多看似有力量的证据来证明神,那个人还是不会去相信。而愿意相信的人,你可能只是那么稍微一说,他就相信了。

 

归根结底,一个人能不能信,不是出于我们列出的证据之多,不是我们的口才之好,只是神在工作,圣灵在那个人心里动工了。

[此贴子已经被作者于2010-4-7 12:12:33编辑过]

谢谢。我的主要精力还是在神学研究,解释无误的圣经,和巩固纯真的信仰上。

圣灵的做工是公义,良善的。所以口出谎言必出于那恶者。

实际就我在科研工作者之间的了解,类似于爱因斯坦信主这种谎言是阻碍他们信主的很大阻力,因此他们也看不起基督徒。这种情况真的是撒旦在做工。
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 楼主| 发表于 2010-4-7 12:43 | 显示全部楼层
以下是引用yihuang在2010-4-7 12:33:00的发言:

又多学习了一些知识图片点击可在新窗口打开查看

这些知识真的没用。我真的苦恼,宁愿是和主一起钉十字架的罪犯,一无所知,但如今和主同在乐园里了。
不知道主 想要如何使用我。请为我祷告!谢谢!

我要进入30天自省期。除了yihuang的一个遗留问题之外,只发帖,不讨论,请大家监督。
[此贴子已经被作者于2010-4-7 22:47:30编辑过]
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